LEK

terry is a koolaid(sp?) drinker.

terryw

I like Nash too, hes my favorite point guard in the league right now. I just look at who has more impact this season and I see Kobe as the MVP. People tend to forget how good the rest of the Suns are.

Fact of the matter is, Kobe got snubbed because hes supporting cast is no where near as good as Nash's supporting cast. They tend to give MVP to a player on one of the top tier teams.

Pratik

iTrader: (3)

Bro, get it right. Mavs aint missing a beat cause they are playing DEFENSE and Avery Johnson preaches that.

Nash shot what, 44% from 3's?? Kobe shot 35%. and Kobe shot 45% FG percentage while Nash shot over 51%. Nash feeds others the ball and makes everyone around him better. Kobe doesnt make Odom, Devean George or Kwame better. Do they win, yes? Will Nash ever score more than 60 a game? Hell no, he gets everyone involved. Nash is MVP.

Oh yea, get Nash to the line? 92% - tops in the leagues.

arjunz

iTrader: (1)

Phoenix would hardly make it to the playoffs without Nash.. do you know what there record is without Nash in the line up... i would look that up... Nash is more valuable to his team... Kobe on the other hand could go to any team and average the same kind of numbers ... because Kobe is less of a team player.. thats why it was soo hard for Shaq to get along with Kobe... Lakers just need to find some better role players.... but Kobe consistently takes out his team-mates outta the game by hogging the ball for long stretches of the game... i think thats his number one problem... he does get double teamed...and passes out of double teams... but how many times does he fight through the double team and put up some crazy shots...

arjunz

iTrader: (1)

and Also because they got Dirk.. who is almost impossible to guard... if his shot is falling... and they got more defensive minded players to balance the offense..

terryw

the MAVS are playing d, however they are still dropping points and running an uptempo offense. They are still putting up big time points. Nash's impact on a team has nothing to do with defense in the first place. Without Nash making everyone better, they are still one of the better offensive teams in the league.

And like I said before, Nash plays with better players, he gets open looks in that offense. Kobe has a double team or tripple team on him every time he touches the ball. Its only natural that he would shoot a lesser percentage. He also goes to the faul line 11 times a game, and takes 22 free throws. That more than makes up for the deficit in shooting percentage.

What does it mean when we say "making your teamates better," thats done by getting your teamates open shots. Kobe draws 2-3 defenders everytime he penetrates. We saw what happened in Game 1 when Kobe tried to get everyone involved. The rest of the lakers got nothing but wide open shots after Kobe draws the defenders and continuously passed the ball... they kept shooting and they kept missing. I rather see Kobe take it strong to the basket and try to get to the free throw line than seeing the rest of the lakers missing open jump shots over and over again.

Do you think that if its Nash penatrating and getting lakers the open shots, they would suddenly start to make them? when you cant convert wide open field goals it dosnt matter who is dishing the passes. Give Kobe better teamates that can shoot, and Kobe wouldnt have to put the team on his shoulder and try to do everything him self.

terryw

we already know both kobe and nash can goto whatever team and average good numbers. however that dosnt address the question of which team is better? suns without nash or lakers without kobe? Would the Lakers be in the playoffs if Nash is playing in place of Kobe?

Nash dishes to to luke walton for a wide open jumper, luke misses. Nash dishes to Kwame for a jumper, Kwame cant even make layups in traffic, let alone jump shots. Nash dishes to Smoosh for a wide open humper, he misses. Nash dishes to Odom, hes a point forward and never kown as a great shooter. NAsh dishes to Chris Mimms for an open jumper? please... Devon George? There is not a single consistent player on the Lakers that can make an open jumpshot. Suns got a handful.

vlm7

iTrader: (1)

I think the Lakers need to bring Glenn Rice back...

Pratik

iTrader: (3)

Dude you're missing the point with Dallas. He had talent all around him with the Mavs. Dirk, Jamison (at the time), Finley, the team was loaded. Nash didnt need to score.

But he starts winning MVP's with the Suns. You're right, Kobe does get double and tripled team but he's always been a me-first kind of guy. Shaq would agree.

You couldnt have possibly told me you'd think Suns would win their division or even win 50+ games without Amare. That is all to Nash's credit. As I said, Raja Bell is a journeyman and he's not THAT good. Look at his numbers before he came to the Suns. Nash makes him look good. As far as Diaw playing a PF (same story as Bell, wasnt good before he came to the Suns), Nash runs the break better than anyone. Kicks out and feeds in the ball to the post. Kobe gets covered good but shoots a ton. I can bet you that Kobe's teammmates dont like to play with him on the floor. Meanwhile, Nash's love him and it shows with over 10 assists a game. Thats MVP.

jiggalam

iTrader: (1)

But aside from Marion, the rest of the Suns aren't that good. Well good role players but stars by no means. But I think Nash has such an impact that he makes them look like stars, kind of. He brings the games of his teammates to a higher level. When Kobe is trying to makes his teammates involved and they mess up, he gets pissed and its all about him. Like I said, you can't fault Kobe his teammates can't handle the pressure, but its the added pressure that he causes that doesn't help his team. Nash will give the ball up no matter what. It's that added trust that makes him a better team player and overall more valuable to his team.

I am glad you mentioned the Dallas Terry thing though. Is Terry MVP worthy? Hell no because Dirk is balling like crazy and needs more consideration too. I think he's the most underrated MVP candidate.

And terryw heres a wrench to throw into this whole arguement. I'd rather see Kobe win the MVP than Nash. I'm not a real big fan of repeats and Nash already got his. Both are def deserving to win but I think Nash has had a more surprising year. Everyone expected Kobe to be gunning and barely make the playoffs as a .500 team. Guess what prediction made true. No Amare and everyone said screw this year, no playoffs, and Suns will be good next year. Result, Nash has an even better year and they "drop" to a 2nd seed in the West. To me Nash def deserves it more than Kobe but I'd like to see Kobe get his, especially with what he's had to go through.

terryw

theres different ways to contribute to a team. Nash is playing the pg position, hes duty is to pass the ball and run the offense. Kobe is a 2 guard, hes job is to shoot the ball and score... whatever the case is, both made their team much better. Its not arguable that Nash due to the position that he plays has a advantage in making his teamates better due to his job.

However Suns won 54 games this season. Even without Nash that had Kurt Thomas for a while before he got hurt. Marrion is a all star level player. They have Barbosa who is good enough to start for a lot of NBA teams, Diaw is pretty much the same player as Odom except hes 6-11, both are good players but not stars. Eddie House is one of the better shooters in the league, and the addition of Tim Thomas is another good player. Even without Nash, i think they can be a .500 squad and contend for a playoff spot. They have around the same talent level as NO, Utah and Seattle. They are good for 41+ wins IMO. So Nash is worth about 13, lets say 15 for his benefit. which is a LOT.

Now look at Lakers without Kobe, The only decent player on the roster is Odom, who is so passive and dosnt have what it takes to take over games not to mention very inconsistent. The rest? all garbage. Most of the Lakers arnt good enough to be a starter on a diffrent NBA team. I mean compare Lakers sans Kobe to Atlanta Hawks whose got Joe Johnson, Harrington, Josh Smith, Childress and Marvin Williams... or to Toronto.. or even the Knicks.. The rest of the Lakers plain sucks. Theyd be lucky if they can even win 20 games!! especially in the West. Kobe is worth about 25 wins for the Lakers.

Nash makes his teamate better, but hes got way better teamates. Theres different ways to contributes to wins, and Kobe is doing it in his own way.
Lakers are the worst team in the league without Kobe.

Pratik

iTrader: (3)

Dude you are really reaching with your comparisons of teammates. This statement alone makes you lose credability:

'Diaw is pretty much the same player as Odom except hes 6-11'

Think again. You're comparing Boris Diaw to Lamar Odom??? Lets see Diaw go to any other team and play well. Not a chance.

And you forget one big thing. Kobe's got Phil Jackson - the greatest coach of all time. Still no Nash.

terryw

Diaw is underated, he was playing out of his position for the hawks. just becase he hasnt been in the league and gotten the same amount of attention dosnt mean hes not as good. they are both skilled tall passing bigmen. Odom is still better right now, but there games are perfectly comparable. you have no more credibility in claiming that he cant play as well on another team than me saying he and odom are the same player. hes the MIP for a reason. Players number dont just take a huge dive once they stop playing with Nash. (see dirk and joe johnson)

Pratik

iTrader: (3)

Did you ever think for once though that Nash makes Diaw better as opposed to him just developing? I dont think you're giving him enough credit and really underrating Odom, and even Smush Parker and even Chris Mihm. All averaged double figures.

Either way i just cant agree with you. Kobe's always been a selfish player and ran Shaq out of town. That to me is unforgiveable after you've won 3 championships.

Anyways you brought up a good point that I forgot. Nash lost Joe Johnson AND Amare this year and still as good. Thats impressive.

jiggalam

iTrader: (1)

I gotta agree with Pratik here. Boris Diaw is good but I don't see him anywhere near Lamar Odom. Lamar Odom is a proven baller. I'm not sure but didn't he make an all star game and play on an Olympic team? He's not exactly a scrub. Even his stats now are better then Diaw's. The only thing Diaw has going for him is he's younger. Theres a reason he was underrated when he was in Atlanta, its because he sucked. I'm not saying Nash made him the player he is now, but I can almost guarentee that he wouldn't have been as good without Nash.