clokwork

I agree with him on this.

Pratik

iTrader: (3)

Arenas is a top 5 player in the league. Wanna argue that? Even close to his calibur? please.

terryw

i said playmaker? not player. areans is a scorer
leaving for happy hour*
ohh and btw id argue about the top 5 player,
Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, Nash, Wade, are better to me. top 10 definetly, top 5 an argument can be made but hes definetly not a shoe in. theres Vince, Kidd, Pierce amongst others that can be arguably better than Areanas

lilmauwow

You quoted Kobe led the lakers towards game 7 against a #2 seed. Thats completely bull****. when you lead a team towards a game 7, either teams win every other game until it leads to game 7 OR a team comes from behind and battles thier way to game 7 when there is no where to go but up. You don't 'LEAD' a team to a final deciding game 7 when you choke games 5 and 6 and 7. Nash led his team being down 3-1, fighting thier way to game 7. You want an example of overhyping Kobe, its right there.

The Lakers were up 3-1 and it was NEVER said none of it was Kobe. Kobe got the most hype of those 3 wins it was ****in ridiculous. And you expect him to get none of the blame? Not even most of the blame by being the leader of the team that was part of the biggest collapses in playoff history?

You want proof how Kobe doesn't make his players better? Because when they won 3 games against Pheonix, that was the Kobe that you should be defending. Kobe changed the way he approached and played the game. It was as close to Jordan like as possible. He got his own and his teammates were involved. In those 3 games, even Phil admitted they couldn't win with they way they played in the regular season.

Lakers were lucky the made the playoffs. If Utah is healthy next year, and now Sacramento will have Artest for a full year, the last 2 spots will be taken. with the Lakers being the odd team out. Kobe needs to find that formula for winning games 2,3 and 4 in Pheonix and hope he can stick it for 82 regular season games for next year.

terryw

ok who are you to define what it means to lead a team to game 7? I mean please if you have a dictionary please show it to me where it says either a team wins every other game or comes from behind and battle to game 7. I mean now you are just making up definitions. It would be nice if you could show me your source where you got your definition of what it means to lead a team to game 7. Yes they lost 3 in a row, but all the games were close and came down to the last second and they contended except for game 7. They lost game 7 and you are saying he didnt lead the Lakers despite having close games throught the series? What youre saying is just rediculous.

When did I ever say he deserves NONE of the blame? you were trying to make him shoulder all of the blame talking about how hes style of play lost the game for them despite the games being close games. you had nothing but criticism for him after those Losses. talking abouthes selfish, lost the game because he didnt get his teamates involved despite taking games to OT, blah blah blah please. When Kobe did win playing your so called "right way," they were still close games and they could have easily lost those. Of course had they lost, you would have been talking about how Kobe gave up and didnt play with hear instead. When they dont win, its all Kobes fualt.


unless you havent watched a single post game conference, or read any of the espn analysis. The games they lost were Close games and Kobe did what was necessary to try to win the games, Phil was the one that told him to take more shots when his teamates werent able to score. I posted earlier analysis from Mark Steine earlier in this thread and You even said that you admit He knows more than you. yet you are now bringing back the old issue again?

do you play organized basketball? if you do then youd know that a single style of play dosnt always click each game. You have to adjust during the game and change your strategy to put your self in the best position to win.
Look at the close game in game 5 that they lost in OT. Kobe started the game by playing in the triangle and dishing playing your so called right way, they ended up being down at half time. So they changed stratedy and had him take more shots, he almost won it in regulation on his last shot. Too bad he didnt make that shot and they lost in OT, so now youre talking about how he was playing the wrong way. the selfish way, blah blah blah

You are just looking at the result of the game, if they won hes the good kobe, if they lost hes the bad Kobe.... They lost game 7 because in the 2nd half Phil told Kobe to stop jacking shots because it wasnt working in the first half, they were down. Kobe plays in the triangle and it didnt work out as they had hoped becuse hes teamates couldnt convert their fieldgoals. What does Kobe have to do??? shoot the shots for them? In the 2nd half of game 7 they used the same strategy they played in game 2-3-4, except the shots werent falling this time, they had open looks they just couldnt score. Of course had the Lakers won, you would have been talking about how he wasnt playing the right way, being selfish in the first half, then played the right way in the 2nd half and they won. PLEASE. And you still never proofed how he dosnt make hes teamates better, you are only allowed to make your teamates better if you win??? whao thats great logic there.


If this If that. blah blah blah, If Kobe had made that last second jumper to end game 5, you wouldnt be here talkin how bad he played in game 5. you dont realize that they did use the formula for winning games 2,3,4 in games 5, 6, and 7. they abandoned that strategey because it wasnt working at the time. in game 7 they went to that stragegy in the 2nd half and it didnt work. But of course to you they didnt use that strategy because they lost, way to judge games based on W/L.


no pun intended, just bball fans arguing

terryw

you claimed that staying in the triangle is the right way to play. its the way they played in games 2-3-4 when they won. those were close games that they could have easily lost.

you claimed that Kobe taking most of the shots is the wrong way to play, yet in game 5,6 were still close games that could easily have ended in victory.

how about you let Phil worry about whats the right and wrong way to play, whether they win or they loose, how about you stop looking at Kobe as if hes the one that decides what strategy they are going to play. Id think Phil knows a tad more about basketball than me and you dont you think?

papagz

nets are getting a beat down!

terryw

ohh and finally this MJ stuff you are talking about is just rediculous. Jordan had less assists than Kobe throughout hes championship years. What he had was way better teamates. Since you only look at results.... The bulls won games, so MJ made his teamates better and Kobe dosnt make hes teamates better because hes team lost. Never mind the gigantic gap in talent level between MJ's teamates and Kobe's teamates. When MJ dished the rock, he had players that can score, when Kobe dish the rock, he has a bunch of players not good enough to start on most NBA teams and inconsistent offensively.

papagz

guyssss lets move on from the Kobe posts. CMON!!! new series' going on

terryw

yeah Heat is playing great today, I wish they can show some consistency. Their offense tend to get really stagnant at times and look unstoppable other times.

terryw

Ill move on from the Kobe posts when the haters stop talking sh*t about his game. I am all for it when they are criticizing his demeaner and unsportsmanship because they are right. but if they are going to hate on him talking about how hes the reason they lost the games they lost then Ill defend him.

lilmauwow

I still can't beleive you are defending Kobe take 3 shots in the second half because he was 'getting his teammates involved'. What a crock of sheet. I didn't know a supposedly great player can only take 3 shots to get his teammates involved. Yes Phil Jackson said to Kobe get his teammates involved, do you actually think he also meant take only 3 shots? Thats the biggest cop out excuse I've ever heard 'cuz phil said to share the ball'

No, you don't have to win to prove you make teammates better. Lets set certain facts straight. When Kobe played games 1-4, it was all over the media how Kobe 'changed' from the regular season. Even Phil admitted it. Wanna know what this change was? Being a better teammate, getting other players involved, making them 'better' and at the same time he was making himself better. So for 4.5 games (game one that they lost, and the first half of game 5) Kobe's supporting cast played out of thier mind. Way better than the regular season at least. Thats when Kobe made them better. The rest of the 82 game reason, they played like thier talent proejcted in the preseason which was to be the 7th or 8th seed in the playoffs. They didn't overacheive, they didn't underacheive. The suns overacheived becasue Nash made his team better. The Hornets overacheived because Chris Paul made his team better. The Lakers did not overacheive, they did what they supposed to do. Make the playoffs and lose in the first round. There is your proof.


You know why its ALWAYS the majority of his fault when they lost the series. Because he is the undisputed leader of the team. He is supposed to find a way, thats what great players do. Especially when you have the ability to win 3 games of a 7 game series. Especially when you are up 3-1 in a series and only 7 teams IN THE HISTORY of the NBA playoffs ever lost 3-1. He deserves all the criticism from his character to his ability to lead the team. Beucase he certainly will get all the credit when the Lakers do succeed. Its that simple, and thats how its always done.

lilmauwow

Kobe didn't make his teammates better when he won championships with Shaq when the lakers were 'winning'. Kobe often detracted from the team to do his own show in many games. There was a reason why a team first coach like Phil Jackson called Kobe uncoachable before he left (more proof for you). Kobe has been labeled since the begining of his career as a player that has not made his teammates better. He's a great volume scorer and a great defender. Thats about it.

terryw

first of all, I have already said that Kobe didnt play well in game 7. but why should be take all the blame? Why cant I defend him? hey his own coach phil jackson defended him, go talk to phil. if you only know how hard it is to change your mentality during games... the philosphy for any motion offense is to pass the ball to the open teamate. Kobe believed in Phil and did just that, because you know damn well Kobe is almost never open. It was not a bad strategy because its worked before, Kobe tried to make it work and it didnt. Should he shoulder some blame? yes, but so should Phil and the rest of the lakers who couldnt make their open shots. Did he give up? No, he played hard all game and played hard on D.

its just sooo easy to say that, being a better team mate, getting others involved, making them "better" blah blah blah. how bout hes teamates made those wide open jumpers. They continued to get wide open jumpers all series, and they didnt hit them when Kobe didnt take over. Phil has said it, Kobe taking over is ordered by Phil, a result of failure to excecute the triangle effectively. of course to you, hes making hes teamtes better, getting them involved when they make their shot. When they miss their wide open jumpers in the games they lost, its suddenly Kobes fualt, Kobe no longer made his teamates better.
great logic there.


you call this proof? you are just making claims, you are just saying the lakers didnt overachieve. thats proof? who are you to say the lakers didnt over achieve or underachieve? They won way more games than last year, and somehow its just all phil kobes got nothing to do with it huh? They didnt make the playoffs and made it this year as a 6th seed, they didnt over achieve? You are using a oppinionated claim to prove another claim, how does that work?

At least this makes more sense, if you really do think like that then what can I say. I just hope you stay consistent, whenever Suns loose a game its Nashs fualt, when Mavs loose a game its Dirk's fualt, Whenever the Cavs loose a game its Lebrons fualt. Whenever a team looses, you question their best player's ability to lead a team. you are just going to blame the star player or players instead of analyzing the game, well... i hope you stay consistent.

terryw

you can only make your teamates better if your team overachieve? if thats the case then how did MJ ever make anyone better? hes team was projected to contend for the trophy every year. How did Magic make hes teamates better? bird? Russel? Wilt? great proof there.