The NBA Playoffs Thread
05-10-2006, 03:56 PM
#181
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Originally Posted by terryw
why wouldnt free agents want to play with Kobe? All the star wing players take that many shots. Kobe is 2nd in the league in assists for shooting guards behind wade. Lebron takes 23 shots a game! Gilbert, Pierce, Carmelo, Wade, AI, Tmac, they all take around the same number of attempts. The only people with more assists in this list is Lebron and Wade. How can you be 2nd in assists if you dont pass the ball? Every player's scoring in Lakers regular rotation went up except for Odom who averaged 2 points less. How can you say playing with Kobe dosnt make players better?
as for being a cancer, I dont remember anyone dissin him besides shaq. And reguarding the Big guy, he has an ego too. lets not forget he was beefing hard with Penny back in Orlando. you have example of any of the current lakers dissin him? you have example of hes past teamates, Fisher, Fox, Horry, Shaw etc dissing him? I dont remember Odom, or Luke, or Parker or Kwame ever dissin Kobe? The only things ive heard is that kobes trying to be a leader this year in the lockerroom. The fact is, hes not a great leader, but hes not a bad teamate either, and far from a cancer in the locker room.
furthermore how does 2nd half of game 7 suggest hes becoming a cancer? he was playing in the triangle like phil told him to and passing the rock. if hes trying to throw the game and prove a point, why does he need to work hard on Defense? why didnt Phil pull him out of the game? why did Phil back him up during post game interview? Why did Phil go back to LA? he demands top $ no matter where he wants to coach at. without Kobe this team would have problem winning even 20 games in the west. Hes only lead them to the playoffs with 45 wins and took the #2 seed to game 7. hes a cancer?
as for being a cancer, I dont remember anyone dissin him besides shaq. And reguarding the Big guy, he has an ego too. lets not forget he was beefing hard with Penny back in Orlando. you have example of any of the current lakers dissin him? you have example of hes past teamates, Fisher, Fox, Horry, Shaw etc dissing him? I dont remember Odom, or Luke, or Parker or Kwame ever dissin Kobe? The only things ive heard is that kobes trying to be a leader this year in the lockerroom. The fact is, hes not a great leader, but hes not a bad teamate either, and far from a cancer in the locker room.
furthermore how does 2nd half of game 7 suggest hes becoming a cancer? he was playing in the triangle like phil told him to and passing the rock. if hes trying to throw the game and prove a point, why does he need to work hard on Defense? why didnt Phil pull him out of the game? why did Phil back him up during post game interview? Why did Phil go back to LA? he demands top $ no matter where he wants to coach at. without Kobe this team would have problem winning even 20 games in the west. Hes only lead them to the playoffs with 45 wins and took the #2 seed to game 7. hes a cancer?
Once again, he didn't take the #2 seed to game 7, the lakers choked thier way past game 7. Big difference.
05-10-2006, 03:56 PM
#182
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thats fine with me, and its perfectly reasonable to knock him for that, as I have knocked him for that my self. He deserves the criticism regarding that.
This is different than blaming him for loosing each game in the playoffs and claiming hes a cancer etc. However much you dont like him and Isiah though, both of them has rings and they are 2 of the best players to ever play the game.
This is different than blaming him for loosing each game in the playoffs and claiming hes a cancer etc. However much you dont like him and Isiah though, both of them has rings and they are 2 of the best players to ever play the game.
05-10-2006, 04:07 PM
#183
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Originally Posted by lilmauwow
Everyone's scoring went up because of the offense that Phil injects which involves motion. Plus you are relating scoring from the previous year, when people were young, less experienced, had 2 coaches in 1 year, and the team had one of the worst records in 05. You pretty much can't go anywhere but up. Plus you hit it straight on the nail. Your second best player Lamar Odom had a worse year while Kobe had a career year. Unlike Nash who had a career year like Kobe, but also made everyone else have career years at the same time. Can you say Kwame broke out this year? No. Can you say Lamar Odom broke out this year? No. Can you saw Smush Parker played out of his mnid this year? No. its mind boggling how you think Kobe makes other players better when everything else says otherwise.
Once again, he didn't take the #2 seed to game 7, the lakers choked thier way past game 7. Big difference.
Once again, he didn't take the #2 seed to game 7, the lakers choked thier way past game 7. Big difference.
and whose" Everyone else"? you and pratik are the only 2 so far. why is it Diaw and Barbosa's broke out season is all nash but not the Sun's system?
first of all both Diaw and Barbosa are ISO players, they hardly ever gets assists from Nash. Who are you to say, Diaw and Barbosa broke out is all Nash, then The Laker player's increase in production is all the system and Kobes got nothing to do with it? How does that work? Nash is a point guard, hes job is to get assists, Kobe is a 2 guard hes job is to shoot, yet he still lead the league in assists for 2 guards in the past years and is 2nd to wade this year? ofcourse to the kobe haters, Nash's assists make hes teamates better, Kobes assists dosnt do jack.
What does Lakers choking take anything away from Kobe leading them there?
how does that work? Kobe didnt lead them? they could have gone to game 7 without Kobe? once again, if Lakers do well everyone else takes the credit, if they dont to well Kobe takes all the blame.
Last edited by terryw; 05-10-2006 at 04:11 PM.
05-10-2006, 04:10 PM
#184
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Originally Posted by terryw
thats fine with me, and its perfectly reasonable to knock him for that, as I have knocked him for that my self. He deserves the criticism regarding that.
This is different than blaming him for loosing each game in the playoffs and claiming hes a cancer etc. However much you dont like him and Isiah though, both of them has rings and they are 2 of the best players to ever play the game.
This is different than blaming him for loosing each game in the playoffs and claiming hes a cancer etc. However much you dont like him and Isiah though, both of them has rings and they are 2 of the best players to ever play the game.
Very true, he will fall in line with one of the best players ever. But then there is another level of best players ever to play the game. Thats where Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, MJ, and a few more fall into place. When his career is over though, I have a strong feeling there will be alot of 'to bad he couldn't have done this, to bad he couldn't have acted like that' sort of sentiment that will diminish his legacy.
05-10-2006, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by terryw
of course, typical Kobe hater mentality. everything good that happens is due to Phil, the triangle offense, everyone but Kobe. Everything bad that happens is all kobe's fualt. How predictable.
and whose" Everyone else"? you and pratik are the only 2 so far. why is it Diaw and Barbosa's broke out season is all nash but not the Sun's system?
first of all both Diaw and Barbosa are ISO players, they hardly ever gets assists from Nash. Who are you to say, Diaw and Barbosa broke out is all Nash, then The Laker player's increase in production is all the system and Kobes got nothing to do with it? How does that work? Nash is a point guard, hes job is to get assists, Kobe is a 2 guard hes job is to shoot, yet he still lead the league in assists for 2 guards in the past years and is 2nd to wade this year? ofcourse to the kobe haters, Nash's assists make hes teamates better, Kobes assists dosnt do jack.
What does Lakers choking take anything away from Kobe leading them there?
how does that work? once again, if Lakers do well everyone else takes the credit, if they dont to well Kobe takes all the blame.
and whose" Everyone else"? you and pratik are the only 2 so far. why is it Diaw and Barbosa's broke out season is all nash but not the Sun's system?
first of all both Diaw and Barbosa are ISO players, they hardly ever gets assists from Nash. Who are you to say, Diaw and Barbosa broke out is all Nash, then The Laker player's increase in production is all the system and Kobes got nothing to do with it? How does that work? Nash is a point guard, hes job is to get assists, Kobe is a 2 guard hes job is to shoot, yet he still lead the league in assists for 2 guards in the past years and is 2nd to wade this year? ofcourse to the kobe haters, Nash's assists make hes teamates better, Kobes assists dosnt do jack.
What does Lakers choking take anything away from Kobe leading them there?
how does that work? once again, if Lakers do well everyone else takes the credit, if they dont to well Kobe takes all the blame.
Uh, look what happened last year vs this year. Basically the same roster, different coach. You do the math.
Who am I to say Nash makes his teammates better? I'm just agreeing with everyone else who voted Nash for MVP. Do you actually think he won the MVP because of his awesome scoring? Or maybe it was his awesome defense. Do you think he won beucase he just makes Marion better? Its sorta obvious to anyone who is involved in the NBA, he does more with less than any person in the NBA right now.
Like I said, just because you rack assists doesn't make your teammates better. I've said it before, look at Stephon Marbury or Steve Francis who average more assist than Kobe AND is a PG. They don't make thier teammates better, and Kobe falls in the same category.
Its kind of contradictory, you are saying Kobe makes his teammates better but yet you blame thier collapse because they aren't good enough. If Kobe makes his teammates better, why couldn't they win 1 game outta 3?
05-10-2006, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by LEK
terry's got kobe's nuts in his mouth loooool dont deny it!!!
05-10-2006, 04:27 PM
#188
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FYI Odom arguably did not have a worse year, I said hes scoring went down. it went down from 15.2 to 14.8. big deal, but his assits went up to 5.5 from 3.7. One player's stats dosnt go up and suddenly Kobe dosnt make hes teamates better? How about Drew Gooden's scoring went down by 4 points from last year? Lary Hughes went down by 7 points, Illgauskus' assist, rebound, scoring all went down. Donynell Marshall's scoring when down... Damon Jones' scoring average dropped by 5 points... Yet you guys are all about how lebron makes his teamates better but not Kobe.?
05-10-2006, 04:29 PM
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I know we've beaten Kobe to death, but this article below spells it out succinctly. I think what gets us Kobe haters all fired up is that the guy has all the basketball tools to be one of the greats but lacks the "easy stuff." Being a teammate, a charismatic guy, someone we can't get enough of. And as this piece points out, he's done it to himself. The comparisons to MJ will always be there, but his copying of MJs mannerisms is creepy--to the point where if you can't live up to MJ's showmanship and leadership, you'll fall flat on your face.
I suppose we all live to see greatness in sports and we feel dissapointed when expectations don't manifest themselves. I know I still am sad that I never saw Bo Jackson continue to play. I said that he would've been the first player ever elected to two hall of fames. He was arguably the best RB in the game (maybe second to Barry) and people forget just how many ***** he hit out of the park. His BA needed help but he would've improved. Barry Sanders retiring was so dissapointing. He would've run all over (or around) Payton, Emmit, and anyone else who stepped in his way. It's just sad we never saw the completion of a great career--one of the greatest ever.
And likewise, in the NBA, we all look for the next coming of "great." MJ has set the bar--like Tiger in golf, Federer in tennis, and Pele in soccer. We all want someone to live up to those expectations. I may hate Kobe but it's not because of anything he does off the court. It's what he doesn't do on the court that isn't basketball related that gets me
*************************
Kobe Bryant is gone from the NBA playoffs, but he remains the most riveting and controversial figure of the postseason. Even his absence fills the room.
Bryant solidified his position as the most polarizing player in the NBA with a wildly inconsistent and confounding series against the Suns. There he is, passing and moving without the ball and generally playing like Steve Nash. There he is, putting up 50 because his team needs it. There he is, petulantly putting up three shots in the second half of the seventh game, just to prove a point about the inadequacies of his teammates.
And to think, the seventh-game disappearance came just as everyone was ready to attach a new description -- team player -- on him.
Say what you want, but he's the only guy who could have pulled that one off.
How's this for redirecting responsibility: You can make a good case that 90 percent of Kobe's problems stem from the lingering, and bizarre, national fixation with Michael Jordan. Kobe is part of the fixation; he's groomed himself to be the successor to the point of imitating Jordan's mannerisms.
And that, more than anything, is why every game featuring Kobe comes across not as a basketball game but as "Kobe on Kobe."
He's been trying so hard to be someone else -- or someone else's version of who he should be -- that he isn't really anybody. From the outside, his words seem hollow and his actions seem borrowed.
When he got clotheslined by Raja Bell, he couldn't simply go to the line and make his free throws. He had to perform a little dust-off on his jersey and a finger-wag to let everyone know the attack was mere lint on a great man's lapel. It was so obviously staged you could almost see the gears turning. OK, I have to do something here …
It's probably crazy to call Kobe's act sad, but it comes off that way. His abilities should be able to stand alone. He's a better pure scorer -- a shotmaker, if that's a word -- than Jordan ever was, and I'd make that case to anybody willing to listen.
The problem is, he's not satisfied with that. He keeps trying to summon the charisma and integrity he doesn't possess, and the result is a guy who can't get out of his own way. He keeps trying to transcend the sport, when he should be content to dominate it.
I suppose we all live to see greatness in sports and we feel dissapointed when expectations don't manifest themselves. I know I still am sad that I never saw Bo Jackson continue to play. I said that he would've been the first player ever elected to two hall of fames. He was arguably the best RB in the game (maybe second to Barry) and people forget just how many ***** he hit out of the park. His BA needed help but he would've improved. Barry Sanders retiring was so dissapointing. He would've run all over (or around) Payton, Emmit, and anyone else who stepped in his way. It's just sad we never saw the completion of a great career--one of the greatest ever.
And likewise, in the NBA, we all look for the next coming of "great." MJ has set the bar--like Tiger in golf, Federer in tennis, and Pele in soccer. We all want someone to live up to those expectations. I may hate Kobe but it's not because of anything he does off the court. It's what he doesn't do on the court that isn't basketball related that gets me
*************************
Kobe Bryant is gone from the NBA playoffs, but he remains the most riveting and controversial figure of the postseason. Even his absence fills the room.
Bryant solidified his position as the most polarizing player in the NBA with a wildly inconsistent and confounding series against the Suns. There he is, passing and moving without the ball and generally playing like Steve Nash. There he is, putting up 50 because his team needs it. There he is, petulantly putting up three shots in the second half of the seventh game, just to prove a point about the inadequacies of his teammates.
And to think, the seventh-game disappearance came just as everyone was ready to attach a new description -- team player -- on him.
Say what you want, but he's the only guy who could have pulled that one off.
How's this for redirecting responsibility: You can make a good case that 90 percent of Kobe's problems stem from the lingering, and bizarre, national fixation with Michael Jordan. Kobe is part of the fixation; he's groomed himself to be the successor to the point of imitating Jordan's mannerisms.
And that, more than anything, is why every game featuring Kobe comes across not as a basketball game but as "Kobe on Kobe."
He's been trying so hard to be someone else -- or someone else's version of who he should be -- that he isn't really anybody. From the outside, his words seem hollow and his actions seem borrowed.
When he got clotheslined by Raja Bell, he couldn't simply go to the line and make his free throws. He had to perform a little dust-off on his jersey and a finger-wag to let everyone know the attack was mere lint on a great man's lapel. It was so obviously staged you could almost see the gears turning. OK, I have to do something here …
It's probably crazy to call Kobe's act sad, but it comes off that way. His abilities should be able to stand alone. He's a better pure scorer -- a shotmaker, if that's a word -- than Jordan ever was, and I'd make that case to anybody willing to listen.
The problem is, he's not satisfied with that. He keeps trying to summon the charisma and integrity he doesn't possess, and the result is a guy who can't get out of his own way. He keeps trying to transcend the sport, when he should be content to dominate it.
05-10-2006, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by lilmauwow
Uh, look what happened last year vs this year. Basically the same roster, different coach. You do the math.
Who am I to say Nash makes his teammates better? I'm just agreeing with everyone else who voted Nash for MVP. Do you actually think he won the MVP because of his awesome scoring? Or maybe it was his awesome defense. Do you think he won beucase he just makes Marion better? Its sorta obvious to anyone who is involved in the NBA, he does more with less than any person in the NBA right now.
Like I said, just because you rack assists doesn't make your teammates better. I've said it before, look at Stephon Marbury or Steve Francis who average more assist than Kobe AND is a PG. They don't make thier teammates better, and Kobe falls in the same category.
Its kind of contradictory, you are saying Kobe makes his teammates better but yet you blame thier collapse because they aren't good enough. If Kobe makes his teammates better, why couldn't they win 1 game outta 3?
Who am I to say Nash makes his teammates better? I'm just agreeing with everyone else who voted Nash for MVP. Do you actually think he won the MVP because of his awesome scoring? Or maybe it was his awesome defense. Do you think he won beucase he just makes Marion better? Its sorta obvious to anyone who is involved in the NBA, he does more with less than any person in the NBA right now.
Like I said, just because you rack assists doesn't make your teammates better. I've said it before, look at Stephon Marbury or Steve Francis who average more assist than Kobe AND is a PG. They don't make thier teammates better, and Kobe falls in the same category.
Its kind of contradictory, you are saying Kobe makes his teammates better but yet you blame thier collapse because they aren't good enough. If Kobe makes his teammates better, why couldn't they win 1 game outta 3?
Nash voter vote for Nash because he took the team to 50+ wins without Amare. He is a benefactor of having great teamates around him. I never said Nash dosnt make hes teamates better. How much is Nash and How much is the system and the other players on the team though?? Nash made a lot of players better, espeically Marion. But if youre giving all the credit for Diaw and Barbosa's breakout season to Nash then youre insane. Barbosa and Nash arnt even on the court at the same time. Does Nash make them better? sure, but who are you to say its all Nash? Who are you to say Francis dosnt make hes teamates better? Who are you to say Kobe dosnt make hes teamates better and its all the result of the system? I mean you are just making these claims wheres your proof?
Last edited by terryw; 05-10-2006 at 04:39 PM.
05-10-2006, 04:37 PM
#191
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Pratik, I dont disagree with the article, it makes great points. however it dosnt have anything to do with
whether Kobe making his teamates better,
Whether you guys are right in blaming it on Kobe when they loose games
This is once again an article that attacks his character which we long have established that isnt great.
whether Kobe making his teamates better,
Whether you guys are right in blaming it on Kobe when they loose games
This is once again an article that attacks his character which we long have established that isnt great.
05-10-2006, 04:42 PM
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incase you missed this:
FYI Odom arguably did not have a worse year, I said hes scoring went down. it went down from 15.2 to 14.8. big deal, but his assits went up to 5.5 from 3.7. One player's stats dosnt go up and suddenly Kobe dosnt make hes teamates better? How about Drew Gooden's scoring went down by 4 points from last year? Lary Hughes went down by 7 points, Illgauskus' assist, rebound, scoring all went down. Donynell Marshall's scoring when down... Damon Jones' scoring average dropped by 5 points... Yet you guys are all about how lebron makes his teamates better but not Kobe.?
FYI Odom arguably did not have a worse year, I said hes scoring went down. it went down from 15.2 to 14.8. big deal, but his assits went up to 5.5 from 3.7. One player's stats dosnt go up and suddenly Kobe dosnt make hes teamates better? How about Drew Gooden's scoring went down by 4 points from last year? Lary Hughes went down by 7 points, Illgauskus' assist, rebound, scoring all went down. Donynell Marshall's scoring when down... Damon Jones' scoring average dropped by 5 points... Yet you guys are all about how lebron makes his teamates better but not Kobe.?
05-10-2006, 04:56 PM
#194
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Originally Posted by terryw
incase you missed this:
FYI Odom arguably did not have a worse year, I said hes scoring went down. it went down from 15.2 to 14.8. big deal, but his assits went up to 5.5 from 3.7. One player's stats dosnt go up and suddenly Kobe dosnt make hes teamates better? How about Drew Gooden's scoring went down by 4 points from last year? Lary Hughes went down by 7 points, Illgauskus' assist, rebound, scoring all went down. Donynell Marshall's scoring when down... Damon Jones' scoring average dropped by 5 points... Yet you guys are all about how lebron makes his teamates better but not Kobe.?
FYI Odom arguably did not have a worse year, I said hes scoring went down. it went down from 15.2 to 14.8. big deal, but his assits went up to 5.5 from 3.7. One player's stats dosnt go up and suddenly Kobe dosnt make hes teamates better? How about Drew Gooden's scoring went down by 4 points from last year? Lary Hughes went down by 7 points, Illgauskus' assist, rebound, scoring all went down. Donynell Marshall's scoring when down... Damon Jones' scoring average dropped by 5 points... Yet you guys are all about how lebron makes his teamates better but not Kobe.?
05-10-2006, 04:58 PM
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diaw wasnt with the suns last year?
Jones, Hughes, Marshall came from teams that didnt have any playmaker thats even close to Lebron's calibur. shouldnt playing with Lebron mean they should do better? Drew Gooden and Big Z has been with the Cavs for years.
Hey I never said once that Lebron dosnt make his teamates better. because he does. In fact ive said Lebrone is a better team player than Kobe. Im just saying how can someone just gonna claim its all system when Kobe's teamates stats went up? and that Kobe dosnt make hes teamates better? thats obviously the Kobe hate talking.
Jones, Hughes, Marshall came from teams that didnt have any playmaker thats even close to Lebron's calibur. shouldnt playing with Lebron mean they should do better? Drew Gooden and Big Z has been with the Cavs for years.
Hey I never said once that Lebron dosnt make his teamates better. because he does. In fact ive said Lebrone is a better team player than Kobe. Im just saying how can someone just gonna claim its all system when Kobe's teamates stats went up? and that Kobe dosnt make hes teamates better? thats obviously the Kobe hate talking.
Last edited by terryw; 05-10-2006 at 05:14 PM.