MSCA

iTrader: (3)

SM_Shadowman,

You're free to use whatever oil you want....I said that from the beginning. There's no insult in that. At the same time, I'll stick with Nissan's recommendations when it comes to something as vital as engine oil.

BTW, if you think that a ticking noise can only be the VVEL actuator, then I'd have to say you're not considering the fact that one ticking noise isn't easily discernible from other potential ticking noises. Hell, even fuel injectors tick during operation. Point is, there are normal "ticking" sounds on an engine and there are "ticking" sounds that can be damaging. I don't see the point in allowing any ticking sounds that are easily preventable in the first place. And if Nissan says that ester oil is the key to eliminating VVEL actuator tick, that's good enough for me.

Mike

iTrader: (1)

Im just gonna randomly throw in here that I just purchased 38 quarts of 300V.

You regulars know where I stand on oil, and know how much that cost

UOA's (and/or spec sheets, MSDS, etc.) are the only empirical evidence as to what an oil is (or isn't) doing, and facts are facts. We should make it a rule that nobody can make claims in here without hard evidence.


Some facts:

Nissan "ester" oil is recommended for VVEL engines only (VK50, VQ37VHR). Not on the GT-R. I'm pretty sure GT-R owners wouldn't mind paying for "ester" oil; they already pay out the @$$ for other vehicle specific fluids.

"ester" oil does not last under severe conditions. I sure as hell wouldn't use it in my car.

The G25 (2011) does not recommend Ester Oil. Go figure.

philter25

iTrader: (4)

Well it seems you made up your mind and thats perfectly fine. However, I never once claimed I was smarter than Nissans engineers. Although Im a chemical engineer and work specifically in the natural gas and oil industry and have the degree on the wall to prove it, I never made the claim I was smarter than they were not tried to imply it.

And lets not act like car manuals are the holy grail. Car manufacturers screw up and make mistakes. A year ago, people like you would scoff at people and make the comment "it seems you guys think you are smarter than the Toyota engineers who designed the car." Obviously, some people were. And you can make the same statement about Ford, Honda, or any other company that made a huge design flaw and had a large recall. I know that a properly designed engine shouldnt have ticking problems and require a custom made oil to solve that problem, so obviously somewhere down the line someone screwed up or didnt account for something in the VVEL design. Ive only used the Nissan ester oil and then an actual ester basestock synthetic on my car and have never experienced the ticking problem.

I hope for your sake that you dont follow their "recommendations" for their 7500 mile oil changes. And yes, there are two schedules in the manual, but despite what you think, Nissan has the same "recommendation" in the manual for both schedules. And if you search other threads, I believe, and ive stated this, that the "ester" oil is fine for 3750 mile oil changes but anyone looking to do longer OCI's would be a fool to use it.

If you choose to disagree with multiple sources of independent scientific evidence, then theres not much more I can discuss with you. Im not the only guy on the internet with a piece of paper, search for yourself and educate yourself if you dont believe me.

I have a challenge for you. Since I enjoy scientific evidence and I would love to be wrong about this, and you believe that Nissan's engineers are the smartest people and know whats best for the engine, run schedule 2 on your car with Nissans "recommended" ester oil and do a UOA. Then post it here. If it looks good, I'll gladly eat crow and admit I was wrong.

Jamler

I just got an oil change at Infiniti. Wasn't cheap, but it
was not $100+ So I'm guessing they're not using Synth/Ester. I'm just
doing normal sporty driving, on a rare occasion I'll run to red line. Should
I go drain what they put in and get some 5W-30 300V and put it in myself?
I have no problem doing a oil change ever 3K. To fill the G its what 6 Liters?

MSCA

iTrader: (3)

What exactly are you claiming about Toyota? Are you talking about the faulty accelerator pedals? Or the whole "runaway car" scandal? If it's the gas pedals, you might want to do some of your own research on the subject. Fact of the matter is that Toyota uses two different independent suppliers for their accelerator pedal units. I happen to own a 4Runner, which was made in Japan (as every 4Runner on earth has been--that's the only place they've ever been manufactured). Japanese-built Toyotas do not have the faulty units (I believe the Japanese Toyotas use Bosch units) which is something that a lot of people don't know. All of the faulty units were made by a company named CTS Corp. in Indiana. But the point here is not which pedals were faulty, it's more about how the faulty units were a problem with a supplier, not Toyota. And if you're talking about the whole "runaway car" thing, well, that's pretty much been proven to be complete BS, just as was the case with the Audi 5000 more than 20 years ago.

I don't really have a problem with a ticking sound if Nissan says it's not harmful in any way...but I do have a problem if that ticking can in any way mask other similar sounds that may develop and ARE a real problem. In other words, I don't want my VVEL actuator ticking and making it so I can't hear a real problem developing. But at the same time, I don't want my car sounding like a piece of crap, ticking all the time anyway....

My G37 isn't my only car. I also live only 4 miles from my job, so I'm not exactly a high mileage driver. I'll average about 6,000 to 7,000 miles per year on my G37, so I stick with a strict 3,000 mile oil change interval, which works out to two oil changes per year. I'll have to let someone else take the challenge.

philter25

iTrader: (4)

I wasnt talking about anything specifically. I happen to also own a Toyota, a V6 RAV4 as our other car. Its had 2 recalls so far. One was the 90k hose failure which can cause a significant problem if it fails and cause engine failure. My father in-law has a Camry hybrid, which has also had 2 or 3 recalls. And it wouldnt even matter who produces a part which fails. The toyota engineers would spec the part, inspect it, and choose to purchase it and install it.

Do you think the same people who designed the VVEL system are the same people who cast the parts and build it? With that same logic, you would give the Nissan engineers a pass if something failed with the VVEL system if they didnt actually built it themselves.

(And Im well aware that there are multiple companies who normally build parts used in cars for every manufacturer. Aisin Warner builds transmissions for almost every company in the world, including Nissan. However, Nissan engineers produce the specs for their car, and buy the parts from AW. Its the engineers job to make sure the transmission they spec from a different company would meet their application. If there is a problem with it associated with the application, thats Nissan's problem and their engineers should have spec'd a different transmission.)

My point was that every car manufacturer has made mistakes, including Toyota who was one of the most reliable companies in the world. So thinking that the engineers who designed the car are beyond error is silly.

Disappointing. There arent many people on here who would disregard multiple independent scientific analyses because of what it says in the owners manual. I was looking forward to the challenge.

MSCA

iTrader: (3)

There's a big difference between a supplier and a manufacturer-specific assembly or sub-assembly. Sure, the manufacturer has the responsibility of choosing suppliers that build parts that are up to their minimum standards, but do you really believe that once a supplier is approved, any car company would do anything more than periodic QA/QC inspections? Yes, the car company's reputation is at stake, but at the same time they can't oversee the manufacture of the parts from every one of their suppliers. So is it really the engineers' fault if a supplier builds faulty parts? I think not.

Are engineers perfect? Is anybody perfect? Of course not. I never made such a silly claim. But you seem bent on somehow trying to prove to me that my belief in taking the advice of Nissan engineers is wrong because of your supposed scientific evidence (oil analysis). I already told you that I do two oil changes per year and put less than 7,000 miles on my car per year, so I'm not concerned with my oil breaking down. At the same time, I'm quite sure there are thousands of people who are using Nissan's ester oil exclusively and driving 7500 miles on it without any ill effects or excessive engine wear, despite what your papers say. Time will tell.....if you're correct, we should start seeing premature engine failures as those same people who choose to use ester oil start racking up the miles on their cars.

philter25

iTrader: (4)

Ha. That was never the debate. I have stated numerous times that if you run the Nissan "ester" oil for schedule 1 only, you will be fine. Its like any other cheap basic dino oil (only it costs 10x the price). It meets API specs, and will be fine for short OCI's. You fall into that category, so never once did I ever say, or mean to imply, that using that oil for schedule 1 maintenance would be bad on your engine.

Maybe we got a little off base here....... I have 2 disputes in this thread:
My first dispute is with Nissan's recommendation that you run the Nissan "ester" oil for schedule 2, which is 7500 miles. And my second dispute is why I responded originally to your original quote, which was completely false and incorrect.

You trust Nissan's engineers, whereas I trust scientific evidence and have numerous "papers", to which my service advisor and manager also agree with me, to back up my claim. So I dont think there is anything less to discuss on my first dispute.

Heres the original quote to get back on track to what was incorrect and my second dispute:

As long as an oil meets Nissan's specs, you can use it. Even if its not the Ester oil. You can use a synthetic oil. Many synthetic oils meet Nissan's specs. If I put in Pennzoil ultra, it meets Nissan's specs, its a synthetic blend, and I would be perfectly fine running it in my car.

You incorrectly told someone what oil they should and should not be using. Thats why I responded to this thread, not to get into a side debate and way off track.

I apologize to anyone else reading this for us going off track.

MSCA

iTrader: (3)

This thread has been a discussion between several different people, so it's fair to say that I haven't just been responding to you.

Actually, it was not completely false and incorrect. Not at all. Nissan recommends their ester oil, which is not synthetic oil. I never said it is required, I just said that it is recommended. Anyway, here's all anyone needs to know when it comes to WHY they should listen to Nissan and not you:

Revenge of the Nerd - Nissan in the sump with diamonds?

philter25

iTrader: (4)

Ive read that article numerous times and its been posted numerous times on here. And if you would have read my other posts on the subject, Ive regurgitated the same info thats posted in that article numerous times.

In fact, I think a thread you even started awhile back which I posted heavily in about API certifications, someone posted that article for you to read!

https://www.myg37.com/forums/general...ester-oil.html

So let me get this straight, I have numerous scientific reports on my hand backing up what I disagree with. But you dont acknowlege them and call them "papers' and Im just a guy on the internet with papers.

But you post an article which has been posted numerous times that someone else even posted in a thread to you and thats supposed to make us all believe that you are correct?

The article is correct about the Nissan ester oil, and I agree with all of it, however it has SEVERAL key bits of information in it and it doesnt discuss the oils ability to stand up to heat or last for schedule 2 intervals. I'll use the article to make my point on schedule 2 maintenance, since I completely agree with all of it.

The problem with the article, and which ties into my disagreement with Nissan, is that:

I completely agree with the article.

Scientific tests, or papers as you would call them, show that this oil is NOT synthetic and does not hold up to the temperatures generated in our engine. It breaks down, it shears to a 20 weight oil around 4000 miles. There are many many many people on here, or experts on BITOG who will tell you that. Its not just me.

So as Ive stated many times on here, this oil is good for people who follow schedule 1.

And again, according to your article, the main additive or the special part of the oil is the suspended PAO ester which helps with lubrication.

So the debate on here (not in this thread) has been for people who want to do extended OCI's and fall under schedule 2. The oil is a good lubricating one, but it wont stand up to the 7500 miles and it will be a light 20 weight oil after that time period..... if not worse.

So people have been debating which PAO or ester based synthetic would still provide the necessary additional lubrication that the Nissan ester oil provides only it will last 7500 miles for schedule 2.

If you look at used oil analysis, you can see what the virgin samples of the Nissan ester oil are composed of. Most show roughly 400 ppm of molybdenum. If you compare that to some of the synthetics talked about on here, others, such as redline and 300V, have similar ppm's of molybdenum.

The additive package of the Nissan ester oil is similar to some of the higher more expensive synthetics. Only difference is the nissan ester oil is made from a lower basestock and shears down to a 20 weight oil after 4000 miles whereas the synthetics do not.

I complately agree with the article. Those types of additives have been used for years and have been proven to work. Most higher end synthetics use some of them.

I again completely agree with the article, but Keywords, OVER CONVENTIONAL OIL! Which again, means people on schedule 1 because conventional oil, or the Nissan ester oil, cant last for schedule 2 intervals. And again, if I were running schedule 1, Id put in the nissan ester oil over any cheap conventional oil. Its not talking about synthetic oils!

I completely agree again. The valve ticking is generally caused from cheap dealer dino oil which lacks the lubricating abilities that other oils have. However, if you use a synthetic with similar properties as the Nissan ester oil, that would also mitigate the valve ticking problem.

What Nissan used for the oil isnt new technology. The types of friction modifiers they use have been used in higher end oils for decades.

If you understand the science of what is discussed in the article, and if you know what basestocks oils are made of, and if you know what the standard detergents and friction modifiers are in oils, then you will understand what Nissan did and you will also know that you can get equivalent lubrication from higher end synthetics. Nissan "suspended" their PAO ester friction modifier in group 3 base oil which is a better lubricator that normal conventional oil. However, because its a group 3 base oil, it shears down and cant stand up to heat. Coincidentally, the G37 valvetrain produces a lot of heat and therefore the oil breaks down around 4000 miles. Therefore, its a good oil for schedule 1 maintenance and will provide better lubrication over the plain old conventional oils.

But again, that was never my debate or something I disagreed with. You seem to keep making counterpoints to points Im not making.

Other than Nissan's statement in the owners manual, NOTHING proves this oil can stand up to a 7500 mile schedule 2 OCI. Anymore articles I havent read yet? Cause Im still waiting for you to prove me wrong.

philter25

iTrader: (4)

For the oil you put in your engine, read what I just quoted from the owners manual. Actually, since you dont believe me or my papers, go read your own owners manual. Its section 9-6.

ANY OIL, ester, synthetic, conventional, which meets the API cert or ISLAC cert is recommended for this car. NOT JUST ESTER OIL! But ANY oil!

To reduce the ticking or as a solution to the ticking, Nissan recommends using their ester oil due to increase lubrication over standard conventional oil or oils which dont have sufficient friction modifiers to work in thie engine. But as clearly stated in the owners manual, any oil which meets the API or ISLAC spec is recommended for this car.

Therefore, if someone puts in a 5w30 API cert conventional oil and changes it at 3 months or 3750 miles, they are 100% following the owners manual.

If someone puts in a 5w30 ISLAC spec and SAE viscosity standard synthetic oil and changes it out at 6 months or 7500 miles, they are 100% follwoing the owners manual.

easy rider

This thread seems to be dying down so let me stir it up again. Oil is such a fun thing to discuss! If any of you have ever replaced a camshaft or tappets/lifters in an V8 or motorcycle engine you will know how important it is to lube everything with High Moly cam lube when you put it back together or the cam lobes will gall badly before they can break-in. The most wear done on any typical engine is those first few seconds after starting the car before the oil pressure builds and flows. OCIs are loosely based on mileage but the type of mileage is really important. Someone whose daily 100 mile commute is all no-traffic highway or freeway is much much easier on their oil than someone who drives a short distance to work in stop-and-go traffic and/or does many short trips in the car. Think of the number of engine revolutions per mile and how it relates to what gear(s) you are driving in. Those who track their cars are in another league all together - VERY hard on oil.

I believe Nissan made this special "Ester" oil because it is still coating their extremely sophisticated valve train assy when the engine is started - the most critical moment for oil protection.

I've had good luck for many years with Mobil 1 oil products in bikes and cars. I believe in the science of the UOAs as a good indicator of oil performance, but I have had at least three vehicles that went over 200K miles without any evidence of burning oil using only Mobil 1.

My solution? I do my own oil change on my G37 using mobil 1 110 oil filter, 3+ quarts of Mobil 1 5W-30 and 2 quarts of Nissan Ester. My OCI is based on my driving and type of commute but is typically around 6000 miles.

If I have any oil related issues on my way to 200K miles with this Infiniti, I will eat my "John Force" baseball cap.

2008 G37S Tanabe mufflers

philter25

iTrader: (4)

Id love to see a UOA of that combo to see how its holding up over 6000 miles.

MSCA

iTrader: (3)

philter25, thanks for the long-winded responses, but the fact of the matter is that I'm not trying to prove you wrong. You're arguing with the wrong person. Actually, you're not arguing with any specific person at all...you're arguing with Nissan.

And BTW, you can keep posting excerpts from your owner's manual all day long, but that still doesn't change the fact that Nissan published conflicting information in their TSBs. I thought you understood that the verbiage in the owner's manual is more legal-speak than anything else. Of course they aren't going to say that you have to use their own special blend of ester oil in the owner's manual!

At the end of the day, I'll still follow Nissan't recommendation to use their ester oil in my car, regardless of what you say. Of course you're free to use whatever oil you choose as well.

Mike

iTrader: (1)

Have you considered an accusump? Given your concerns, a few hundred dollars would go a long way in easing your concerns. UOA's in other engines with accusumps do not show any decrease in wear. These are raced vehicles, so the wear and tear that occurs at startup may be completely overshadowed by use. However, overall wear is still low, no higher than a hard-driven street car.