Growing market for ester oil
06-05-2010, 11:04 AM
#1
Growing market for ester oil
I'm sure everyone here knows that the VQ engine is used across many models in Nissan/Infiniti's model line-up. That said, it seems logical that the demand for Nissan's ester oil will only increase as more of these newer VQ engines are manufactured.
So how long will it take before one of the big oil companies begins offering a "generic" version of Nissan's ester oil? This will help drive costs down because the local Nissan/Infiniti dealer will no longer be the only game in town....
And yes, I realize there are other oils that have an ester component in them, but I'm talking about an EXACT replacement for the Nissan ester oil that you purchase via the dealerships. Nobody is offering that today, right?
So how long will it take before one of the big oil companies begins offering a "generic" version of Nissan's ester oil? This will help drive costs down because the local Nissan/Infiniti dealer will no longer be the only game in town....
And yes, I realize there are other oils that have an ester component in them, but I'm talking about an EXACT replacement for the Nissan ester oil that you purchase via the dealerships. Nobody is offering that today, right?
06-06-2010, 08:23 PM
#2
Registered User
I guess some company would need to reverse engineer the formula and perhaps fight patent lawsuits. Although from what I heard Nissan was denied a patent in Europe for this formula? Or something like that.
But I also suspect at the moment there's not enough of a market to care about it. My hunch is only a small percentage of VQ engine owners even know about ester oil, considering that we've heard some dealerships aren't really pushing it. It's also uncertain if Nissan is going to keep making engines that require it or if they're going to come out with some better technologies and the Nissan Ester oil will forever remain a small niche market.
But I also suspect at the moment there's not enough of a market to care about it. My hunch is only a small percentage of VQ engine owners even know about ester oil, considering that we've heard some dealerships aren't really pushing it. It's also uncertain if Nissan is going to keep making engines that require it or if they're going to come out with some better technologies and the Nissan Ester oil will forever remain a small niche market.
06-07-2010, 12:36 PM
#4
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06-08-2010, 07:59 AM
#5
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All of the other things are produced by many manufacturers, thus there is no obligation.
06-08-2010, 09:09 AM
#6
I dont think any company is going to make a specific oil for a specific car. Most oil's are widespread and not designed for a single engine, that way theres more of a market share.
Right now, ask Mobil, Shell, Pennzoil, or Redline if they have an oil for the G37, and they all will tell you yes.
Plus, given how poorly the "nissan ester oil" performed in numerous UOA's on the board, I dont think there is really a need to duplicate it.
And, I bet the majority of drivers of cars with VQ engines dont even know that Nissan has their own special oil. Remember, the majority of drivers arent enthusiasts and arent on the boards.
Right now, ask Mobil, Shell, Pennzoil, or Redline if they have an oil for the G37, and they all will tell you yes.
Plus, given how poorly the "nissan ester oil" performed in numerous UOA's on the board, I dont think there is really a need to duplicate it.
And, I bet the majority of drivers of cars with VQ engines dont even know that Nissan has their own special oil. Remember, the majority of drivers arent enthusiasts and arent on the boards.
06-08-2010, 09:15 AM
#7
The need for an "ester oil" in the VQ37VHR is much smaller than say... a VW 507.00 spec oil. Manufacturers actually make an oil that specifically meets VW's requirements in the spec.
However, I'd love to see it in the long run. The real question is, does Nissan have that kind of influence on the market?
However, I'd love to see it in the long run. The real question is, does Nissan have that kind of influence on the market?
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06-08-2010, 01:09 PM
#10
Registered User
But obviously that pretty much never happens that way. Instead, they just try to push and recommend the OEM parts and dealership service and the warranties are still valid if you don't use them.
But back to the topic, yes the only requirement is 5w-30 api-cert oil. But from we've been able to gather from the research available with the Ester oil there seems to be more to it than just Nissan hawking their own product. Most car companies don't manufacture their own oil. Nissan (allegedly) made a product to work especially well with the DLC coating on the VQ engines. Or perhaps they developed it to solve some apparent problems with high temperatures when using other oils.
Revenge of the Nerd - Nissan in the sump with diamonds?
But the jury is still out on whether they have succeeded or not. It's certainly not the only oil one can use with the car. And as philter mentioned above, there is some evidence that it may not even be the best oil to use with this engine.
06-08-2010, 03:18 PM
#11
Registered User
06-10-2010, 02:27 PM
#12
And theres a reason Redline and Amsoil both arent API certified. To meet API certification they would need to change the additive package and it would reduce the protection from both oils. Both companies believe that the API's phosphorus limit is too low.
If they wanted to be API certified, they could easily just reduce the amount of phosphorous in their oil. Some oil fanatics would argue that the API specs actually limit the use of some high performance better oils which would provide better protection for their engine...... which would be pretty beneficial to our engine, which is one that produces a lot of heat.
On the other hand, if you compare the VOA's of Schaeffers and Redline and Amsoil, depending on what VOA you look at, theres only a 100 ppm difference.
Also, Nissan Ester Oil is API certified. But after running it and UOA data, theres no way in hell I'd put that in my car for an OCI. Numerous UOA's have shown the same exact thing. Just because its API certified, doesnt mean its the best for this car.
06-10-2010, 02:34 PM
#13
More info on the whole API certified vs non-api certified:
AMSOIL and API Licensing Certification&Warranty
Amsoil and Redline and a few others are in the same boat. Its a good read.
Some interesting tidbits:
Nissan Ester Oil VOA's put their phosphorous at around 700-800 ppm depending on samples. Redline is 1100-1200 ppm. So you can put Nissan Ester Oil in your car every 3750 miles, because it shears at 4000 miles, and over the course of 7500 miles, you would have put 1400-1500 ppm of Phosphorous in your car. OR you can put in Amsoil or Redline and do a longer OCI. Both have better protection for your engine, and over the same 7500 miles, you would only put in 1100-1200 ppm of Phosphorous.
This is scientific data which can be found through any VOA or even UOA's all over the boards, my350z, and BITOG.
So the reason Redline isnt API certified is because of the phosphorous quantity, but because I do extended OCIs, I introduce less Phosphorous to my cat converter than if I followed Nissan's recommended schedule 1 with their recommended Nissan Ester Oil that shears down to a 20 weight oil and doesnt protect my engine as good as Redline or Amsoil will.
AMSOIL and API Licensing Certification&Warranty
Amsoil and Redline and a few others are in the same boat. Its a good read.
Some interesting tidbits:
Why are some AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils API licensed and some are not?
There are two primary reasons:
1. There are strict phosphorus additive level restrictions placed on API certified oils that would
minimize the full performance and extended oil drain capability of AMSOIL motor oils.
2. The API does NOT allow read-across approvals for synthetic motor oils, and therefore
certification costs become unrealistic.</SPAN>
Phosphorus Restrictions
Full API licensing, or certification, would impose strict phosphorous limitations on AMSOIL motor oils. This limitation is the main reason most AMSOIL motor oils are not API licensed. AMSOIL INC. currently disagrees with this limitation and feels strongly that the reduced wear and longer oil and additive life achieved through higher levels of properly formulated and balanced phosphorous content is more important than the arbitrary API phosphorous limit that does not give any consideration to the NOACK volatility level of an oil. When chemistry is developed that will provide superior engine wear protection with reduced phosphorous levels, or NOACK volatility considerations are put in place, then the phosphorous level will become a non-issue.
Keep in mind that every time a person changes their motor oil, they are introducing a fresh quantity of phosphorus from the new oil to the engine’s catalytic converter. By the very nature of providing extended oil drains, in a typical application AMSOIL motor oils actually introduce a smaller volume of phosphorus to the catalytic converter over the life of the vehicle, which means it is more friendly to the catalytic converter and is actually a more environmentally friendly product to use.
Read-Across Approvals
In the lubricants industry petroleum motor oils that are API licensed have “ read-across approval .” What this means is you can seek API licensing approval on a specific product, with a particular additive package, and then use read-across approval to market this same oil formulation in any number of oil viscosities. For example, if you license a 5W-30 with additive package ABC, then you can market your 10w-30 or 10W-40 engine oils with the API certification donut provided these other viscosities use additive package ABC. The API does NOT allow read-across approval on synthetic engine oils, which means that every single oil viscosity must be individually/separately, certified to carry the API certified donut mark of the API.
API Licensing, via read across approval, works for petroleum products, but the licensing process has a “stranglehold” on synthetic technology. This puts AMSOIL INC. in a tough situation. If we followed conventional practice, not only would we find it necessary to buy “ off the shelf ” oil formula components from specific vendors - and be at the mercy of their pricing - we would not be able to make any major improvements to the lubricant formulas for 2 to 3 years, without new testing and, not surprisingly, even higher associated costs.
The cost for running a test program for a single passenger car motor oil formulation is from $125,000 to $300,000, depending on if the formula passes the tests the first time through, or if it requires multiple test runs or formula modifications to achieve a passing average.
To solve this problem, the API should establish base stock interchange guidelines for synthetic basestocks - just as they have for other basestocks - as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components so that manufacturer’s and marketers of synthetic engine oils have an even playing field as it relates to API certification costs.
There are two primary reasons:
1. There are strict phosphorus additive level restrictions placed on API certified oils that would
minimize the full performance and extended oil drain capability of AMSOIL motor oils.
2. The API does NOT allow read-across approvals for synthetic motor oils, and therefore
certification costs become unrealistic.</SPAN>
Phosphorus Restrictions
Full API licensing, or certification, would impose strict phosphorous limitations on AMSOIL motor oils. This limitation is the main reason most AMSOIL motor oils are not API licensed. AMSOIL INC. currently disagrees with this limitation and feels strongly that the reduced wear and longer oil and additive life achieved through higher levels of properly formulated and balanced phosphorous content is more important than the arbitrary API phosphorous limit that does not give any consideration to the NOACK volatility level of an oil. When chemistry is developed that will provide superior engine wear protection with reduced phosphorous levels, or NOACK volatility considerations are put in place, then the phosphorous level will become a non-issue.
Keep in mind that every time a person changes their motor oil, they are introducing a fresh quantity of phosphorus from the new oil to the engine’s catalytic converter. By the very nature of providing extended oil drains, in a typical application AMSOIL motor oils actually introduce a smaller volume of phosphorus to the catalytic converter over the life of the vehicle, which means it is more friendly to the catalytic converter and is actually a more environmentally friendly product to use.
Read-Across Approvals
In the lubricants industry petroleum motor oils that are API licensed have “ read-across approval .” What this means is you can seek API licensing approval on a specific product, with a particular additive package, and then use read-across approval to market this same oil formulation in any number of oil viscosities. For example, if you license a 5W-30 with additive package ABC, then you can market your 10w-30 or 10W-40 engine oils with the API certification donut provided these other viscosities use additive package ABC. The API does NOT allow read-across approval on synthetic engine oils, which means that every single oil viscosity must be individually/separately, certified to carry the API certified donut mark of the API.
API Licensing, via read across approval, works for petroleum products, but the licensing process has a “stranglehold” on synthetic technology. This puts AMSOIL INC. in a tough situation. If we followed conventional practice, not only would we find it necessary to buy “ off the shelf ” oil formula components from specific vendors - and be at the mercy of their pricing - we would not be able to make any major improvements to the lubricant formulas for 2 to 3 years, without new testing and, not surprisingly, even higher associated costs.
The cost for running a test program for a single passenger car motor oil formulation is from $125,000 to $300,000, depending on if the formula passes the tests the first time through, or if it requires multiple test runs or formula modifications to achieve a passing average.
Note: That amount goes to $275,000 to $500,000 for a Heavy Duty Diesel licensing program on a specific formula.
Once that testing is complete and the formula has passed all of the minimum requirements, it can be licensed for $825 per year for non-members and $625 per year for members. There is also a small royalty fee per gallon sold for all gallons over one million. The length of time between new specifications is now approximately 2 to 3 years, which does not allow a great deal of time to recover testing costs. To solve this problem, the API should establish base stock interchange guidelines for synthetic basestocks - just as they have for other basestocks - as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components so that manufacturer’s and marketers of synthetic engine oils have an even playing field as it relates to API certification costs.
This is scientific data which can be found through any VOA or even UOA's all over the boards, my350z, and BITOG.
So the reason Redline isnt API certified is because of the phosphorous quantity, but because I do extended OCIs, I introduce less Phosphorous to my cat converter than if I followed Nissan's recommended schedule 1 with their recommended Nissan Ester Oil that shears down to a 20 weight oil and doesnt protect my engine as good as Redline or Amsoil will.
Last edited by philter25; 06-10-2010 at 02:39 PM.
06-10-2010, 03:37 PM
#14
Registered User
And theres a reason Redline and Amsoil both arent API certified. To meet API certification they would need to change the additive package and it would reduce the protection from both oils. Both companies believe that the API's phosphorus limit is too low.
If they wanted to be API certified, they could easily just reduce the amount of phosphorous in their oil.
If they wanted to be API certified, they could easily just reduce the amount of phosphorous in their oil.
My 2010 owners manual states at page 9-6:
"Select only engine oils that meet the API or ISLAC certification. These oils have the API Certification mark on the front of the container."
So, as long as I'm in warranty, I personally prefer not to give Infiniti a reason to potentially deny coverage. Perhaps that's too conservative on my part.
Certainly I agree with you that their recommendation of Nissan Ester oil is a poor one based on the evidence.
06-10-2010, 04:20 PM
#15
^ No problem. I just figured Id clarify a little more incase someone reading it thought that API certification was the gold standard. And if a dealer tried to void your warranty for using a non-API certified high end fully synthetic oil in your car without direct proof that it caused the failure to deny the warranty, if you knew what you were talking about and took them to court, with all the scientific data out there, the dealer would have a very hard time winning.
Its good to know WHY its not API certified and what the API certification even means. Because if you want to look at the reasoning on why they arent API certified, if you take the logic behind it and use those upper end fully synthetic oils for extended OCI's, you actually put less Phosphorous in your engine than if you followed Infiniti's recomendation of their Nissan Ester Oil. So based on my oil change schedule, Im actually under the API phosphorous level over a 7500 mile interval by using 1 oil change of Redline or Amsoil vs. the recommended Nissan Ester Oil.
Case in point is look at the UOAs of Redline and Amsoil and Royal Purple. They all make non-API certified oils that are much much much much much better for your car than cheaper oils which are API certified.
And as you said you agree with me on, also in your owners manual, Infiniti even recommends an oil for their schedule 2 maintenance (which is 7500 miles) that is API certified but numerous UOA's show it shearing and breaking down at 4000 miles.
You are more likely to see engine problems from following infiniti's advice and using their Nissan Ester oil on schedule 2 than you are from using Redline or Amsoil on schedule 2.
Also, Im guessing that the reason they state in the manual is to use only API certified oils is incase some idiot puts somethig stupid like Crisco in his car and wonders why he has engine failure.
I also hope you read through the link that I posted. Since you seem to have an interest in oil, it might be of value to you. And it will also elaborate on your warranty denial concerns.
Also, the reason its not API certified is because of the Phosphorous, and because excessive amounts of oil burned with Phosphorous can damage your cat converters. It really has nothing to do with engine wear or lubrication. Phosphorous is important for valve train protection in your engine, and as most of us know, the VVEL is pretty complicated and produces a lot of heat and needs the protection. And the reason the API cert cut the phosphorous ppm requirement was that the government pushed for a 150,000 mile cat converter lifetime. The quickest way to do that was to drop the phosphorous spec in the API. So the only thing the dealer could void your warranty on would be cat failure..... and if your engine is burning that much oil that your cats are failing before your warranty is up, then you have a serious problem!
Its good to know WHY its not API certified and what the API certification even means. Because if you want to look at the reasoning on why they arent API certified, if you take the logic behind it and use those upper end fully synthetic oils for extended OCI's, you actually put less Phosphorous in your engine than if you followed Infiniti's recomendation of their Nissan Ester Oil. So based on my oil change schedule, Im actually under the API phosphorous level over a 7500 mile interval by using 1 oil change of Redline or Amsoil vs. the recommended Nissan Ester Oil.
Case in point is look at the UOAs of Redline and Amsoil and Royal Purple. They all make non-API certified oils that are much much much much much better for your car than cheaper oils which are API certified.
And as you said you agree with me on, also in your owners manual, Infiniti even recommends an oil for their schedule 2 maintenance (which is 7500 miles) that is API certified but numerous UOA's show it shearing and breaking down at 4000 miles.
You are more likely to see engine problems from following infiniti's advice and using their Nissan Ester oil on schedule 2 than you are from using Redline or Amsoil on schedule 2.
Also, Im guessing that the reason they state in the manual is to use only API certified oils is incase some idiot puts somethig stupid like Crisco in his car and wonders why he has engine failure.
I also hope you read through the link that I posted. Since you seem to have an interest in oil, it might be of value to you. And it will also elaborate on your warranty denial concerns.
Also, the reason its not API certified is because of the Phosphorous, and because excessive amounts of oil burned with Phosphorous can damage your cat converters. It really has nothing to do with engine wear or lubrication. Phosphorous is important for valve train protection in your engine, and as most of us know, the VVEL is pretty complicated and produces a lot of heat and needs the protection. And the reason the API cert cut the phosphorous ppm requirement was that the government pushed for a 150,000 mile cat converter lifetime. The quickest way to do that was to drop the phosphorous spec in the API. So the only thing the dealer could void your warranty on would be cat failure..... and if your engine is burning that much oil that your cats are failing before your warranty is up, then you have a serious problem!
Last edited by philter25; 06-10-2010 at 04:51 PM.