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I did Cobb tunes on all of my Subarus and that was really cool back in 2002-2009. But the fact is that the competition moved on a long time ago from 300 hp cars. Look at the Camaro and Mustang now. The next Golf R, Focus RS, and Nissan Z are all supposed to have 400-ish hp. Sure you can tune an STI, but when you start out 100 hp down on your competitors you've already lost.
The last track day I was at had a tuned STI in my group and I flew past him like he was standing still. And I was definitely not the fastest car in my run group. The STI might be enough for some people who just want a newer version of the same car they have made since 2004, but I want my next car to be faster with more power, not the opposite. Hopefully, everything I read is wrong and the new STI is a giant killer like it used to be, but it is not looking good at this point.
The current generation STi is 310 horsepower.
The Camaro is 275, and the Mustang is 310, so I'm not quite sure what you're comparing them to, unless it's the V8s, which wouldn't make sense to me since the STi is a turbo 4.
I haven't followed the RS and the Z isn't exactly comparable being a 2 seater. The Golf R isn't going to be 400 hp. The head of the R division said a 400 hp R would cost over 50K and they would lose half the sales. Do the math, 5000 units at 40K vs 2500 at 50K would be like a 38% drop in sales. STi is going to continue to make competitive power for a 40K car.
I get wanting more, but I think your expectations of 400 horsepower is unrealistic for a 40K new car
When it first came out it was definitely a V8 competitor (even if that wasn't it's target) and I believe, 10+ years later, we have the expectation that it would continue to compete with the Mustang and Camaro. I understand your argument that we shouldn't compare them but that's hard to do when the performance was comparable until 2012.
The Camaro and Mustang added over 100 HP over the last decade while the STI has been stagnant. It will take some time to change the narrative but even when/if that happens, the STI has gotten fat and happy while the direct competition has caught up and, in some cases, surpassed the performance of the STI. It also doesn't help when it comes to price, it's kind of a no contest in that you're getting a lot more car for your dollar if you go with the competition vs. the STI. The RS is a monster compared the STI and the dealer mark-ups killed that car (along with the factory head gasket mix-up). The R is a potent machine and we can't exclude the CTR now that prices are coming back down to Earth. I'd even throw the Veloster N into the mix as a worthwhile competitor.
The STI seems like a fun car for what it is but fanboys and Subaru die hards are keeping that platform alive. We give the Z a hard time but no real advancements since '04?? I personally, do not see the craze over them. Every forum, reviewer and the guy who tuned my car have stated the EJ is a hard sneeze from blowing up. Once built, they're pretty great but that's another discussion and comparison. I haven't personally driven one but there's also nothing there that makes me want to drive one either.
Same. My personal experiences are a few friends over the years with a lightly modified WRX, and a good friend who had a STi with the OEM sport exhaust. The WRX was quick and fun, and the STi was almost brutal in its level of grunt. But overall they each felt like crappy economy cars loaded up with bone-jarring suspensions and power they could barely contain.
I'm just not at all interested in these cars. I respect them for what they are, but would never loop them into a comparison with a RWD muscle car or the G37. For that matter, I respect Lego's choice in his new VW, but for what it is, not for how it compares to a completely different platform.
Basically. I was interested in an Evo X and watched videos of reviews and modded builds. I found myself staring at the cheap, rental car interior instead of paying attention to the performance. 16-22 yr. old me would've been overjoyed with a car that had a powerful drivetrain bolted to an $11 interior.
Closing in on 30 now, and while I think they're impressive when built to the max, I don't believe owning one would be nearly as enjoyable now that I could swing something like that. Realistically, something with power out of the box that would only require basic bolt-ons and a tune is what I'm aiming for. Suspension needs to be spot on from factory. I did the coilover experiment on the G37 and it just wasn't for me. Car was a blast on nice roads and looked great but realistically, most of the roads I travel on are 'ok' at best. Back on the OEM set-up and I loath the wheel gap but the ride quality is night and day. Might try springs next summer.
When it first came out it was definitely a V8 competitor (even if that wasn't it's target) and I believe, 10+ years later, we have the expectation that it would continue to compete with the Mustang and Camaro. I understand your argument that we shouldn't compare them but that's hard to do when the performance was comparable until 2012.
The Camaro and Mustang added over 100 HP over the last decade while the STI has been stagnant. It will take some time to change the narrative but even when/if that happens, the STI has gotten fat and happy while the direct competition has caught up and, in some cases, surpassed the performance of the STI. It also doesn't help when it comes to price, it's kind of a no contest in that you're getting a lot more car for your dollar if you go with the competition vs. the STI. The RS is a monster compared the STI and the dealer mark-ups killed that car (along with the factory head gasket mix-up). The R is a potent machine and we can't exclude the CTR now that prices are coming back down to Earth. I'd even throw the Veloster N into the mix as a worthwhile competitor.
The STI seems like a fun car for what it is but fanboys and Subaru die hards are keeping that platform alive. We give the Z a hard time but no real advancements since '04?? I personally, do not see the craze over them. Every forum, reviewer and the guy who tuned my car have stated the EJ is a hard sneeze from blowing up. Once built, they're pretty great but that's another discussion and comparison. I haven't personally driven one but there's also nothing there that makes me want to drive one either.
The Camaro and Mustang have added on horsepower, but they've also increased the price. A GT Premium or Bullitt is pushing 50K MSRP. There is just so much more headroom with a V8 or a TT V6.
I think expecting big horsepower out of something that is rooted in an economy car is kind of unrealistic. The Boxster is pushing 350 out of a 2.0T and the Bpoxster S is at 350 out of a 2.5T, and those are 60K+ cars. I just don't think Subaru--or VW--want to play at those power and price levels. I'd be happy with 310-320 HP in a STi that didn't have the propensity to pop ringlands if you sneeze wrong and could eek out 20 mpg in the city. Keep the 6MT alive and maybe shed some pounds and I think it would be competitive.
I'm just not at all interested in these cars. I respect them for what they are, but would never loop them into a comparison with a RWD muscle car or the G37. For that matter, I respect Lego's choice in his new VW, but for what it is, not for how it compares to a completely different platform.
I don't really disagree with you. The only reason cars like the R and STi are on my radar is that they are the last 4 door manual transmission holdouts with AWD or RWD.
I'll have the muscle car angle covered soon enough, but I'm going to need a 4 door for the at least another decade. Rather a 6MT STi or R than an Q50 with an automatic, even if that Q50 has 400 horsepower.
Whatcha talkin about, Willis? Resurrecting an old Trans AM, are you?
No, I sold my Trans Am back in '13.
The plan has always been to get a Mustang GT/Bullitt or Camaro SS when I payoff the R--only 46 months to go, not that I'm counting. I'll continue to use the R for daily use when I need it, and the Mustang or Camaro becomes a toy car/sunny day ride.
The current generation STi is 310 horsepower.
The Camaro is 275, and the Mustang is 310, so I'm not quite sure what you're comparing them to, unless it's the V8s, which wouldn't make sense to me since the STi is a turbo 4.
You know you can get a Camaro SS with 455 hp or a Mustang GT with 460 hp for less than an STI, right? This is my point. Why would anyone pay more for the STI for less performance? The STI needs to evolve and keep up. The STI used to be able to embarrass V8 Camaros and Mustangs, but since it has stayed the same for the last 15 years it is falling behind.
Originally Posted by Lego_Maniac
I haven't followed the RS and the Z isn't exactly comparable being a 2 seater. The Golf R isn't going to be 400 hp. The head of the R division said a 400 hp R would cost over 50K and they would lose half the sales. Do the math, 5000 units at 40K vs 2500 at 50K would be like a 38% drop in sales. STi is going to continue to make competitive power for a 40K car.
The Z is long in the tooth too, but it still has more power, better handling, and costs a lot less than an STI. That's old news about the Golf R. There have been a lot of new articles talking about the new Golf R having about 400 hp and the GTI jumping up to 300 hp. The Golf R is still on my radar.
Originally Posted by Lego_Maniac
I get wanting more, but I think your expectations of 400 horsepower is unrealistic for a 40K new car
Please see above about Camaro SS and Mustang GT. Oh wait, maybe you already did as your plans below say you are going after a Mustang GT or Camaro SS. Ironic. So why are you not considering a new STI?
Originally Posted by Lego_Maniac
The plan has always been to get a Mustang GT/Bullitt or Camaro SS when I payoff the R--only 46 months to go, not that I'm counting. I'll continue to use the R for daily use when I need it, and the Mustang or Camaro becomes a toy car/sunny day ride.
You know you can get a Camaro SS with 455 hp or a Mustang GT with 460 hp for less than an STI, right? This is my point. Why would anyone pay more for the STI for less performance? The STI needs to evolve and keep up. The STI used to be able to embarrass V8 Camaros and Mustangs, but since it has stayed the same for the last 15 years it is falling behind.
Regardless of the turbo vs V8, you know the STi seats realistically seats 4 right? And when you talk about other cars that have 4 doors in that 40K class, the STi makes competitive HP
The point I was trying to make, is how many 400 hp turbo 4s are out there? Answer: not many.
Further, a base STi is 37.4 and the fully loaded limited is $42.2. The Mustang and Camaro that were in the recent Car and Driver comparison both had base prices of 46K and optioned out were a little over 51. There might be a base version that comes in closer to the STi Limited, but it's not going to have the same content, and it will be missing all the go fast goodies we'd both want.
Originally Posted by 4DRZ
That's old news about the Golf R. There have been a lot of new articles talking about the new Golf R having about 400 hp and the GTI jumping up to 300 hp. The Golf R is still on my radar.
Actually, it's not old news. The talk of 400hp is old news all all dates back to the 400R concept. The head of the R division recently said an 400 hp R was a no-go, because it would cut the potential market in half and cost 50K plus--I've pasted a link several times recently but you must ave missed it. The RS3 has 400hp, and starts at 56K. A 400hp R would be over 50K. Much like the STi, you're going to be disappointed in the MK8 if 400hp is your bogey.
Originally Posted by 4DRZ;4254392
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Please see above about Camaro SS and Mustang GT. Oh wait, maybe you already did as your plans below say you are going after a Mustang GT or Camaro SS. Ironic. So why are you not considering a new STI?
I didn't consider an STi because the R was about 5K cheaper, has a 6/72 B2B warranty, doesn't pop ringlands and had a far, far nicer interior. I think you keep missing what I'm saying on this too. I'm going for both. The R and a Camaro or Mustang. Two cars. The R for my daily commute and when I have to deal with picking up and dropping off my kids, a RWD muscle car for when I don't have said kids and sunny weekend afternoons
Last edited by Lego_Maniac; 09-03-2019 at 05:45 PM.
Reason: Additional Clarification
Regardless of the turbo vs V8, you know the STi seats realistically seats 4 right? And when you talk about other cars that have 4 doors in that 40K class, the STi makes competitive HP
The point I was trying to make, is how many 400 hp turbo 4s are out there? Answer: not many.
I owned an STI so yes, I am aware of the leg room. Also the plastic fantastic interior, numb styling, and most importantly, the fact I have been trying to make from the beginning- that it has had the same power for 15+ years and is now horribly outclassed by basic V8 Mustangs and Camaros that have lower base prices. Sure, you can add a lot more performance features to the Mustang and Camaro for more money, but you don't need to since the base models already blow the doors off of an STI. You could make the same argument for the upcoming STI S209 which is rumored to cost upwards of $65,000!?! No thanks.
The main reason there are not many high hp 4cyl. turbo 4 doors on the market is that most people go buy a Mustang, Camaro, Challenger/Charger instead. Just look at the sales numbers. The STI has become nearly irrelevant and will remain that way with the same hp if that is true. Again, I really hope it is not true, but it is not looking good for the STI.
Originally Posted by Lego_Maniac
The talk of 400hp is old news all all dates back to the 400R concept. The head of the R division recently said an 400 hp R was a no-go, because it would cut the potential market in half and cost 50K plus--I've pasted a link several times recently but you must ave missed it. The RS3 has 400hp, and starts at 56K. A 400hp R would be over 50K. Much like the STi, you're going to be disappointed in the MK8 if 400hp is your bogey.
Now lets talk about something more interesting than how much of a disappointment the STI is going to be if it carries on the same hp as it has for the last 15 years.
Today I had the chance to drive an 800 hp GT-R. Yes, today was a good day. But not for the reasons you would think. Here is the weird thing- driving that car made me appreciate my G37 even more and that GT-R even less. Let me explain.
Yes, the GT-R had a lot of power, but also a fair amount of turbo lag so it was not terribly useful on the street. It either felt too slow for a bit too long for an 800 hp car or it flipped a switch into 800 hp rip your face off mode and you just tripled the speed limit before you could say, "license and registration." Yes, it was fun to do a few hard pulls with the car and watch the landscape flash by like I was in a bullet train. But that was about where the fun ended. The exhaust was constantly loud and did not sound great, the ride was rough (cheap springs?), and the experience was just not that involving and fun. It was basically like sitting on top of a rocket and lighting a fuse. Yes, I know that sounds fun, but the car was a one trick pony. Very little connection with the driver which led to a rather unsatisfying drive. Not to worry, not all GT-Rs are like this. Over the years I have been lucky enough to drive two others and they were great. It was this one in particular that made me realize that tuning done right makes all the difference.
I got back into my car and the sound of the exhaust was music to my ears compared to the gravelly rasp of the GT-R. Everything fell readily to hand and was precise and involving. From the exacting clutch take up to the satisfyingly direct connection to the gears, it was a much more rewarding drive out of the parking lot in my car than the full speed runs in the GT-R. Maybe it was the connection and confidence I gained from knowing every aftermarket part bolted onto my car and the fact that I turned nearly every nut, bolt, and screw myself. Was it that intimate connection with the car or was it something else that made everything come together so perfectly in my car compared to the GT-R? I'm not completely sure, but I do know that I sure will miss the manual transmission when it finally disappears off the market place.
The thing is, that article sites no actual source. Just rumor and speculation and "insiders". How about an actual person, on the record?
On the other hand, you have the head of the R division, Jost Capito saying during an interview: "We did research and customers don't want it," Capito told Top Gear. "They want around 300 horsepower and a price tag below €50,000 [EUR, or $56,500 USD]. To move up to 400 horsepower you lose 50 percent of the sales volume, and increase the cost of ownership."
And: As the Golf R's MSRP in the United States is $40,395, Capito's statements imply that building a Golf R capable of 400 horsepower from the factory could balloon its price by more than 40 percent,
Look at it this way, if VW really wanted to do a 400 hp R, the car already exists: it's the Audi RS3. All they have to do is swap the 5 cylinder and hardware. Why develop a second 400 hp motor for a handful of cars? And if for some crazy reason they did, you're still looking at an almost 60K car.
Sorry man, but it just doesn't make sense. We can reconvene in a few months when the MK8 launches in Europe and see where the actual power figures fall.
But overall they each felt like crappy economy cars loaded up with bone-jarring suspensions and power they could barely contain.
THIS.
I've turned economy cars into high power cars. They're still a high school bro but on steriods. Fun for 10 minutes then meh for the rest of the payments - think Mazdaspeed 3 or the Neon ACR.
Pushing 50, I want a *nice* car, that holds some folk, that ALSO has decent power. As my daily driver. Still hoping for the Exige for the weekend/no kid car. Or maybe a 370Z convertible since I'll have spare parts.
IMHO anything much over 300 on a street car is pushing for liability. How many Viper owners sued Dodge when they wrapped the car around a pole in the first month? I think that's why the much higher power cars are so expensive and limited production - it limits the liability pool.
But when you add the factors of 300+ HP, RWD or AWD, manual transmission, 4 doors or 4 actually usable seats, and daily comforts? You're mostly talking about BMW, Mercedes, or... nothing. Audis are all most all automatic, Porsche is priced out of most people's reach (and not everyone loves the panamera), lexus has only automatics and AFAIK so does infiniti and acura. G80 and Stinger are looming but the stigma against Korean cars and quality... no one wants a 350HP Rio. Pickin's getting slim, boys.
THIS.
But when you add the factors of 300+ HP, RWD or AWD, manual transmission, 4 doors or 4 actually usable seats, and daily comforts? You're mostly talking about BMW, Mercedes, or... nothing. Audis are all most all automatic, Porsche is priced out of most people's reach (and not everyone loves the panamera), lexus has only automatics and AFAIK so does infiniti and acura. G80 and Stinger are looming but the stigma against Korean cars and quality... no one wants a 350HP Rio. Pickin's getting slim, boys.
I mean, Porsche is still priced out of our reach but the new Taycan looks incredible. They've fixed the Tesla Model S track problem re: overheating. Performance metrics on paper seem incredible, some of the passenger seat driving videos do too. Yeah it isn't a stick or a dino-fuel ka-boomboom but as far as a daily with 4 doors, incredible power and comfort... it really is hard to beat. Guess I need to fight for that promotion at work lol
09-02-2019, 07:19 PM
You know you can get a Camaro SS with 455 hp or a Mustang GT with 460 hp for less than an STI, right? This is my point. Why would anyone pay more for the STI for less performance? The STI needs to evolve and keep up. The STI used to be able to embarrass V8 Camaros and Mustangs, but since it has stayed the same for the last 15 years it is falling behind.
