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I wonder if it's something some reprogramming could take care of. The Camaro doesn't seem to get much flak despite having the same transmission.
Hope the used ats v's drop quite a bit in price over the next few years. I'd rather have that than a camaro.
Originally Posted by 4DRZ
Nice! My dad taught me how to double clutch because he had an Alfa Romeo, some MG's, and a number of other sports cars in the 60's and 70's that required it. Double Clutching was the way I always did it until I read a racing book about heel and toe down shifting and suddenly realized I was wasting time. Heel and toe is so much easier and quicker, but it took me a few tries to retrain my brain as I was so used to double clutching. I probably couldn't do it smoothly anymore, but I can heel and toe in my sleep. (In fact, sometimes my wife thinks that I shift in my sleep)
used to commute 58mi through the Santa Cruz mountains in a 74.5 MGB... I feel your pain. Both feet in was a totally different adventure in that car. Two hands under the wheel and doin a deadlift with both feet on the brake.
used to commute 58mi through the Santa Cruz mountains in a 74.5 MGB... I feel your pain. Both feet in was a totally different adventure in that car. Two hands under the wheel and doin a deadlift with both feet on the brake.
I drove the ATS-V and the transmission and clutch were great (the opposite of our G's stock). I hear the transmission is bulletproof too since it has been around quite a while. There were small paddles on the back of both sides of the steering wheel to turn the rev matching on and off. It worked pretty well and was easy to heel-toe shift too.
I guess I don't really understand how the auto rev matching works. If you have rev matching on then can't you just press the clutch in and downshift? Or do you need to blip the throttle first for it to work?
Originally Posted by 4DRZ
Our cars are easy to heel and toe, but maybe you guys are trying to use your heel? It is called heel and toe because old cars had huge gaps between the pedals and you really did have to use your heel and toe to downshift. (You also had to double clutch on downshifts due to the lack of synchros. This was how I learned- but unnecessary now.) You don't even need to angle your foot as much as the picture below. All you really need to do is push in the brake with roughly the left 3/4 of your foot and blip the throttle with the right 1/4 of your foot during the split second the car is in neutral when you down shift. It is difficult to explain, but easy to do once you figure it out. I drove to work with my snow boots on the other day and was heel and toe shifting. I probably do it a few times a day without even thinking about it. That's how you get good at it. Just make it a part of your normal driving.
I try to use the right side of my foot because that's what I've seen in some youtube videos, but I end up just doing a little blip and braking too hard. But practice makes perfect, so it goes.
I guess I don't really understand how the auto rev matching works. If you have rev matching on then can't you just press the clutch in and downshift? Or do you need to blip the throttle first for it to work?
I try to use the right side of my foot because that's what I've seen in some youtube videos, but I end up just doing a little blip and braking too hard. But practice makes perfect, so it goes.
The rev matching blips the throttle for you before you can get it into the next gear. I usually make it a game and try to finish the shift before the throttle blips (not possible). The idea is that your shifts are faster.
You are on the right track. Just focus more on your braking and be smooth there. The blipping of the throttle is the easy part.
So I have been giving this M3 vs. ATS-V debate a lot of thought recently. I have watched a ton of youtube videos on both and learned lots of little, but important things about both cars (also a fair amount of misinformation). For example, the M3 does not allow you to turn off the auto rev matching unless you completely disable all of the stability control and traction control- LAME! That is going to suck on track.
I also learned that the ATS-V has a number of different modes for the stability control including wet, sport 1, sport 2, and race. That should be great for the track. This combined with the no-lift shift, rear differential cooler, performance data recorder, and heated Recaro seats with suede inserts and adjustable torso and thigh bolsters on the ATS-V almost make me overlook the M3's better exterior/interior styling, infotainment, exhaust sound, and larger brakes.... almost. I plan to at least sit in a new M3 in the next few days to test out the seats as one of the youtube reviews claimed that the competition seats had more supportive side bolsters. Those ATS-V seats are excellent though.
So I have been giving this M3 vs. ATS-V debate a lot of thought recently. I have watched a ton of youtube videos on both and learned lots of little, but important things about both cars (also a fair amount of misinformation). For example, the M3 does not allow you to turn off the auto rev matching unless you completely disable all of the stability control and traction control- LAME! That is going to suck on track.
I wonder if this can be coded off?
When I had my Subaru Legacy GT, the Cobb AP enabled a no lift shift feature.
That's interesting. Good find. But the million dollar question is, "Can you turn it back on in some way other than having to go back into coding?" Not very convenient when you are on the track at speed and want to alternate like you can with the paddles on the ATS-V.
Wednesday night I finally got a chance to drive a new M3 and it had the Competition Package and a DCT .
Exterior styling: This car looks fantastic and aggressive from just about every angle. I think my car looks pretty aggressive, but parked next to this it made my car look like a POS. The wide fenders are great and did you know they are unique to the sedan? All the lines look great and I am really starting to like the wheels. Very good styling. Much more aggressive than even the ATS-V. The brakes are impressively large on this car as well, but they use fewer pistons front and back than the ATS-V, and are 1 pc. cross drilled. The ATS-V also has brake ducts and I do not believe the M3 does.
View from the driver's seat: The visibility is just as good as our cars or the ATS-V, maybe even better. The gauges are a bit small. Due to that and the much improved acceleration I almost had to use the heads up display with the digital speedometer to keep from getting arrested. (If you look closely you will see that the CE light was on- not the best sign of reliability for a brand new car.) The heads up display had a nice big tachometer in the most aggressive setting, but I could not find a way to show it in the other settings. Fortunately, there is an "M1" and "M2" setting to remember your preferences as there are a lot to choose from. I thought this car had the tachometer that moved the redline once the engine warmed up but this is what it was when I started up the car. I forgot to check if it changed when I finished my drive.
Center console: The fit and finish in the M3 is extremely nice and definitely a step above the ATS-V and our G cars. The carbon fiber looks amazing! The DCT is garbage. I don't know why anyone would want this transmission. I felt like I was driving a computer. I spent most of the time in the manual mode trying to make it fun, but it was difficult to get the timing down due to the small speedo, tires struggling for grip in the cold, and how quickly it shifted. I think I would like the manual much more.
This is also the land of way too many settings. Three settings each for the transmission, engine, steering, suspension, and I think at least 2 or 3 settings for stability control. At least the engine got progressively louder the more aggressive you got with the engine setting. You could actually hear the engine too and it was nice- very different than the almost silent ATS-V or our cars stock. The idrive controller is also much easier to navigate than earlier BMW's and easier than the ATS-V.
Instrument panel: All the controls are definitely easier to use on the dash compared to the ATS-V. Lots of people rave about this screen and the features, but I found it very basic. The only "performance" screen just shows estimated hp and tq. What the hell are you supposed to do with that?? Even the base ATS-V had a lot more things you could do on this screen and the small screen between the speedo and tach on the ATS-V had the most useful performance data I have seen in a car in a long time. The back up and forward cameras are also garbage in the M3. For some reason the back up camera only takes up 1/2 of the screen and it is on the passenger side. Why?? The forward cameras do not show directly in front, but in front off to the sides. I could not discern any good reason for this and could not tell where I was pointing the car. The ATS-V front sonar will be much more useful for avoiding curbs.
Seats: I know the Competition Package seats have the holes cut out of the back and I heard they do not have adjustable lumbar (forgot to check), but I am not sure if the bolstering is any different. They felt surprisingly good and quite snug. I am not sure if I would slide around a little bit on track or not, but I think the adjustability of the Recaro side bolsters and their suede inserts still give the ATS-V the edge.
Ride & Drive: I keep comparing this car to the ATS-V and I am sure I will need to drive both again in warmer weather to be sure, but they both have their advantages and disadvantages. The ride of this car was very firm in the softest "comfort" mode, maybe even more firm than my car on coilovers. It only got stiffer from there. I would say it is definitely manageable and probably due to it being a Competition Package with firmer suspension and 20" wheels, but a much harsher ride than the ATS-V. The ATS-V suspension was amazing. It was extremely comfortable in every setting, but still managed to handle unbelievably well. I'm still not sure how they pulled that trick off. However, this car was more exciting to drive than the ATS-V and felt more connected and responsive- partly because you could actually hear the engine. The turbos on this car seemed to kick in harder compared to the ATS-V that succeeded in eliminating turbo lag, but has a less exciting and more linear power delivery. I'm also told the only way to cancel the auto rev match in the M3 manual is to disable all of the stability controls. Not great.
At this point it is still a tough call. The ATS-V wins in terms of track capability, track data, ease of switching driving modes on the fly, ride quality, seats, back up camera, front sonar and some available features like the performance data recorder, wireless charging, carbon package, and suede steering wheel and shifter. The M3 wins thoroughly in terms of exterior/interior styling, materials, and fit and finish as well as exhaust, rear seat leg room and being fun to drive. Because the tires were cold and also because I would have to turn off the stability control just to avoid the car shifting for me, I get the feeling that the M3 might try to kill me a few times. It's like dating the really hot girl who is also crazy. She can be a lot of fun, but also a huge PITA. I was reminded of the universal hot/crazy matrix:
For that reason the ATS-V with a different exhaust may be the way to go. Now if only I could find one the way I want it. It's good that I have some time because I think I still need to drive them again when it is warm out to test the limits of both cars to be sure.
If forced to make a decision between the two based on your review, I'd choose the Cadillac. And I can't believe I'm saying that, because I really don't like Caddy.
GM had something special with that ATS-V. The Alpha platform + mag ride is very difficult to beat. Based on my own opinion, and after reading your review, the ATS-V is definitely the 'driver's' car compared to the BMW. Maybe the DCT held it back but the CEL would have made my decision for me. It's a sign..
I need my cars to have a case of stockholm syndrome with the way I beat on them; going to be hard to kill a tremec 6060 + a motor that they have been using for years and was beefed up for this car.
The BMW can look gorgeous all it wants but that doesn't do me any good if it can't stay on the road.
If forced to make a decision between the two based on your review, I'd choose the Cadillac. And I can't believe I'm saying that, because I really don't like Caddy.
Thanks. I think I am struggling with the same issue with the ATS-V. It's not a perfect car, but I usually go that route and then just fix the issues.
Originally Posted by RMB5190
GM had something special with that ATS-V. The Alpha platform + mag ride is very difficult to beat. Based on my own opinion, and after reading your review, the ATS-V is definitely the 'driver's' car compared to the BMW. Maybe the DCT held it back but the CEL would have made my decision for me. It's a sign..
I need my cars to have a case of stockholm syndrome with the way I beat on them; going to be hard to kill a tremec 6060 + a motor that they have been using for years and was beefed up for this car.
The BMW can look gorgeous all it wants but that doesn't do me any good if it can't stay on the road.
I agree with you on the chassis, suspension, and special car that the ATS-V is. (Maybe that's why I cannot find any the way I want.) I also agree with you on the CE light being a sign and the engine and transmission being pretty bullet proof in the ATS-V. I think the fact that the ATS-V is so rare makes it a bit more special for me. Now that just means if I ever find what I want I am going to have to drop everything and just buy one. I have been looking on and off for well over a year now... Although 2019 will be 3 years after it debuted so maybe there will be some nice lease return ATS-V's hitting the market.
Fingers crossed for you. Hate to see you move on from the G37 but a part of me is hoping you pull the trigger on the ATS-V so you can give a review on what ownership is like for us (me ). Are you dead set on a sedan? Was wondering if you investigated the TTRS at all.
The wide fenders are great and did you know they are unique to the sedan? All the lines look great and I am really starting to like the wheels. Very good styling. Much more aggressive than even the ATS-V. The brakes are impressively large on this car as well, but they use fewer pistons front and back than the ATS-V, and are 1 pc. cross drilled. The ATS-V also has brake ducts and I do not believe the M3 does.
I think it's more than just the fenders that are unique. IIRC, it's only a handful of exterior body panels--doors and trunk?--that are shared.
Number of pistons doesn't really mean anything except from a bragging rights perspective. Pad size, total swept area, rotor size and cooling are more important. I'd be more concerned with aftermarket pad availability and replacement rotor cost since you're going to be tracking the car.
Originally Posted by 4DRZ
(If you look closely you will see that the CE light was on- not the best sign of reliability for a brand new car.) The heads up display had a nice big tachometer in the most aggressive setting, but I could not find a way to show it in the other settings. Fortunately, there is an "M1" and "M2" setting to remember your preferences as there are a lot to choose from. I thought this car had the tachometer that moved the redline once the engine warmed up but this is what it was when I started up the car. I forgot to check if it changed when I finished my drive.
Is it possible they haven't ran the car through pre-delivery inspection yet hence the CEL? I'm pretty sure it was the last gen M3 that had the moving redline.
Originally Posted by 4DRZ
This is also the land of way too many settings. Three settings each for the transmission, engine, steering, suspension, and I think at least 2 or 3 settings for stability control. At least the engine got progressively louder the more aggressive you got with the engine setting. You could actually hear the engine too and it was nice- very different than the almost silent ATS-V or our cars stock. The idrive controller is also much easier to navigate than earlier BMW's and easier than the ATS-V.
I've heard others say there are too many settings, and that it would be easier if it was consolidated. 99% sure the M3 pipes fake engine noise in through the sound system, which is why it got louder in the more aggressive settings. Even though it sounds good, I personally hate it. Disabling the soundaktor in my R was one of my first mods.
Originally Posted by 4DRZ
I really dislike the iPad sticking out of the dash look, and the display seems small. My folks have a 3 series and I find the radio integration lacking, and the navigation screen way too small. The ATS-V looks better integrated
I don't think you'd be disappointed with either. The biggest challenge is going to be finding an ATS-V optioned the way you want since there were so few sold. I recall seeing some killer lease deals on it a few years back, so those might be popping up. M3s are far more plentiful. All things being equal, I'd lean M3. I don't think I ever seen a comparison between the two cars where the ATS-V wins.
Pretty much a win-win outcome IMO, but the acceleration above 100 sure seams to favor the M3. Guessing that's a combination of gearing and the M3's lighter weight.
Fingers crossed for you. Hate to see you move on from the G37 but a part of me is hoping you pull the trigger on the ATS-V so you can give a review on what ownership is like for us (me ). Are you dead set on a sedan? Was wondering if you investigated the TTRS at all.
Don't worry, I think it may be a while before I find an ATS-V or M3 that I actually want to own. I have been looking once a week for the last 6 months and still have yet to find the right car- some close though. For the ATS-V I think I may see some more this year that are 3 year lease returns. Next year the velocity red ATS-V's will be 3 years old. Hmmm....
Originally Posted by Lego_Maniac
Great review, as usual
I think it's more than just the fenders that are unique. IIRC, it's only a handful of exterior body panels--doors and trunk?--that are shared.
Number of pistons doesn't really mean anything except from a bragging rights perspective. Pad size, total swept area, rotor size and cooling are more important. I'd be more concerned with aftermarket pad availability and replacement rotor cost since you're going to be tracking the car.
Is it possible they haven't ran the car through pre-delivery inspection yet hence the CEL? I'm pretty sure it was the last gen M3 that had the moving redline.
I've heard others say there are too many settings, and that it would be easier if it was consolidated. 99% sure the M3 pipes fake engine noise in through the sound system, which is why it got louder in the more aggressive settings. Even though it sounds good, I personally hate it. Disabling the soundaktor in my R was one of my first mods.
I really dislike the iPad sticking out of the dash look, and the display seems small. My folks have a 3 series and I find the radio integration lacking, and the navigation screen way too small. The ATS-V looks better integrated
I don't think you'd be disappointed with either. The biggest challenge is going to be finding an ATS-V optioned the way you want since there were so few sold. I recall seeing some killer lease deals on it a few years back, so those might be popping up. M3s are far more plentiful. All things being equal, I'd lean M3. I don't think I ever seen a comparison between the two cars where the ATS-V wins.
Pretty much a win-win outcome IMO, but the acceleration above 100 sure seams to favor the M3. Guessing that's a combination of gearing and the M3's lighter weight.
Thanks! The M3 and M4 share most of the same parts, but the thing that is cool about the M3 is that BMW spent a lot of money to re-engineer wider rear fenders than the M4. That seems pretty cool.
The amount of pistons does make a difference. That's why the heavier ATS-V with narrower tires and smaller brakes stops shorter than the M3- even in the test you linked from almost 2 years ago. (Why did your dentist still have an issue from 2017?) I still wish the ATS-V had larger rotors and I wish the M3 had bigger calipers, 2 pc. rotors that were not drilled, and brake ducts, but the perfect set up usually requires a little tuning.
The M3 I drove has been on the lot for quite a while so it was already set up. The last 2 generations of M3 had the adjustable redline (I had an E46), but I really thought this one did too. The redline was lit up and showed other bars that could be lit up. Maybe I'm wrong. (Wouldn't be the 1st time)
The M3 does pipe in fake noise, but it is much more subtle than a Golf R. The exhaust definitely gets louder. I rolled down the windows and it sounded great. I could never really hear much engine noise coming through the stereo. It sounded like it was coming from the exhaust with the windows up or down.
The "ipad" dash in the M3 is actually a lot shorter than most other cars like the Mercedes, Mazda, and new Altimas. It's really not bad, but it lacks much useful information.
I don't think I have found a review (including the one you linked) that said the M3 rode, handled, steered, braked or posted better skid pad, 0-60, or 1/4 mile times than the ATS-V. I am getting these cars for performance so I want the better performer. The fact that the ATS-V rides a lot better is just a bonus. I still like the exterior/interior styling and fit and finish better in the M3. I really need to drive a 6spd. M3 without the Competition package to be sure, but if the performance is worse in almost every measurable category compared to the ATS-V, it's really going to have to impress me.
Originally Posted by Rochester
^^^
Fantasizing about driving the Quadrafoglio with a proper 6MT, like they originally promised.
I wish they brought that car here to the U.S. I also wish it was reliable.
01-07-2019, 04:44 PM
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). Are you dead set on a sedan? Was wondering if you investigated the TTRS at all.
