g37guy01

Uhhh. okay, if that's the best analogy you can use to illustrate the point...not making a car purchase decision based on reliability surveys vs smoking cigarettes and hoping you don't get cancer....we clearly think vastly differently.

I have never not had at least decent service from dealerships. Although I have never had a car that had any significant issues where I was stranded.

I would rather have a car that's not likely to need any attention either. But having a stellar reputation as a car manufacture does not guarantee you that. You play the odds. If you play the odds it's a gamble. And since it's a gamble, I live my life without worring about what I can't control.

I can control smoking, which I why I said we think vastly differently.

visualguy

You can control which car you buy.

Let's say the probability of encountering problems with the Infiniti G is X, and the probability of encountering problems with the BMW 3-series is X+Y. We know that Y is pretty significant based on reliability reports such as TrueDelta.

By making the decision to buy BMW rather than Infiniti, you're incurring an additional chance measured by Y of getting car trouble beyond the chance of getting car trouble with the Infiniti. Similarly, by deciding to smoke you would be incurring an additional chance of getting cancer. To avoid incurring the additional risk, you can decide to buy the Infiniti rather than the BMW, or decide not to smoke.

I'm not saying that car trouble is anywhere near as bad as getting cancer, of course! If I thought the BMW 3 was so much nicer than the G that it would be worth suffering from some potential additional reliability problems, then I would buy it, but I personally don't find it so great to be worth the extra risk or the extra cost for that matter...

g37guy01

That's true, in bold. I always pick the best car for me. But the best car for me, may not be the CR top pick or the JD Powers reliability winner.

I'm okay with living with the probability of the car getting into trouble. It's not going to end my life as lung cancer will if I smoke cigarettes, which is why I said we think vastly differently.

I personally thought the 3 was much better than the G, which is why I decided to buy it and potentially get the headaches that come with ownership.

And as I said, given the tranny thread, Infiniti has some stuff to deal with as well. At least my BMW never went into limp mode.

visualguy

Interesting... In what ways did you find it to be much better than the G?

When I checked out the 2012 BMW 3, I was hoping to find reasons to justify the extra cost and reliability risk, but I found it to be a mixed bag. It was a little nicer than the G in some ways, and less nice in others. Overall, I didn't see a compelling reason to incur the extra cost and reliability risk.

Beyond that, I didn't like the snooty attitude at the BMW dealerships around here and their packed service departments. The Infiniti dealership wanted my business, and the service department seemed accessible. This may be just be a local thing, but it affected my decision.

Also, I would have needed to special-order the manual transmission BMW 3, which means that I would have gotten an even more unappealing deal on the price...

Beer Magazine

BMW sport seats are so much better than the POS sport seats in the G!

kaoticdemize

iTrader: (2)

I visited a BMW dealership once to buy a new M3, took 45 minutes to be helped then I got a snotty what do you need, and then was asked if I could afford an M3. That was my last experience walking onto their lot. Customer service can go a long way.

g37guy01

Do you look like you are 16 years old? The first time I went to an Infiniti dealer I waited a half and hour. They were incredibly busy. You can't really judge a luxury dealership by that. Even when I went into a Lexus dealership I waited 15 minutes.

I guess BMW dealers get their fair share of liars who are "interested" in only the "test drive" of an M3 not the actual purchase. Meh, my BMW dealer treated me like gold and the ratings on dealerratings.com back that up.

If you look at dealerratings.com you can get a sense of the good and bad dealerships.

visualguy

Same here. I was favorably inclined to buy a BMW to try something different after many years of owning Nissans and Infinitis. The salesman at the first BMW dealership immediately labeled me as a "Nissan" person, assumed I couldn't afford anything more than an Infiniti G, and said I might be able to afford special ordering a stripped 3-series with manual transmission. He said that there isn't much profit for them when they sell a car without a lot of options, so they don't order them for inventory. I was interested in checking out the car, and he was interested in talking money and getting fixated on his perception of what I could afford as a "Nissan" guy.

The second dealership was even worse. No one paid any attention to me at all. Eventually I had to almost beg someone to talk to me, which he did for a few minutes before getting distracted and disappearing. I did get the opportunity to check out the 335i pretty thoroughly inside and out, but I didn't drive it.

I also noticed that the service departments in both places seemed extremely busy. Sales was also busy - they were selling cars even while acting aloof and snooty, but I guess they don't need good customer service when the cars pretty much sell themselves in affluent areas. BMW has great marketing, and many people around here (CA) think they really make the ultimate cars, and it's a privilege to be allowed to purchase one - it's like begging the Soup **** for some of that heavenly soup.

g37guy01

When I visited the Lexus dealership, that day all of the service bays were taken. The sales guy I spoke to was aloof as you described, even though I could pay cash for an LS460. I eventually decided not to get the ES350, but I guess like you said, they don't need good customer service when the cars pretty much sell themseives in affulent areas.

Lexus has great marketing and I can see how they make you feel it's a priviledge to be allowed to purchase one. Wait, I can't believe more than one manufacturer pulls this same stuff.

My Infiniti dealer didn't have this attitude. I guess it's true, they are number 2 and they try harder. At the end of the day, I'm buying the car and I'm finding the right dealerhsip to sell it to me. Though. I'd rather have a crappy salesperson that gives me a good deal, than a smooth talker that doesn't.

visualguy

Yes - Infiniti tries harder, so they get my business. I didn't try Lexus, but heard from colleagues that they are indeed similar in attitude to BMW around here. Lexus cars have much better reliability ratings than BMW, though.

g37guy01

At the end of the day, BMW sells a lot of cars. It seems not everybody worries about price and reliability ratings.

visualguy

True, if I was rich-enough I wouldn't worry about those things either... For example, my boss owns about a dozen very expensive European cars (BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Ferrari, Bugatti), some of which always seem to have problems, but it's no big deal for him. Some of the cars are always in working order, and the dealers send people to his home or office to pick up and drop off cars before and after service.

g37guy01

Well I doubt it's the porsches. Probably Ferrari.

You hit the nail on the head, you are not the target demographic for a BMW. We buy cars for our reasons. You and I debating this point will not change BMWs successful perception to those who want the cars.

visualguy

Don't know which ones give him the most grief. It seems like his Mercedes cars need the most frequent repairs, but those are also the ones he drives the most, so I don't know if that means anything.

I personally don't like spending more than somewhere in the $40K's at today's prices for a car, and then I don't want any grief from it for many years... I achieved this reliability with Maximas and Infinitis, but not with an Audi and a Subaru that gave me a lot of trouble in the past, and I was too afraid of repeating that with the BMW.

g37guy01

Well we can start with our one off experiences, which I do agree form a basis of our perceptions. Having said that, the basis for our future perceptions are all different.

My Forester XT has 90K miles. I had it in for one warranty repair; to fix the latch release on the rear seat retractor.