new 328 is out, close to pricing of 2012 G37
#196
Registered User
That's like saying that you're willing to smoke because your experience with smoking may turn out to be vastly different than that of smokers who get cancer... Sure, but you would be taking a significantly higher health risk by smoking. It's all about probabilities - you want to minimize the probability of getting into trouble.
The thing I hate the most about car trouble isn't the expense or even the hassle. It's the fact that it's hard to get consistently good service. The problem may not be fixed right, or the wrong thing is "fixed", or the right thing is fixed but something else is damaged in the process, or some cosmetic damage is inflicted, etc. Often when they start messing with something non-trivial (or even trivial...), things end up not being quite right again mostly due to the incompetence and negligence of whoever happens to be working on your car. I'd rather have a car that's likely not to need the attention of mechanics more than the absolute minimum.
The thing I hate the most about car trouble isn't the expense or even the hassle. It's the fact that it's hard to get consistently good service. The problem may not be fixed right, or the wrong thing is "fixed", or the right thing is fixed but something else is damaged in the process, or some cosmetic damage is inflicted, etc. Often when they start messing with something non-trivial (or even trivial...), things end up not being quite right again mostly due to the incompetence and negligence of whoever happens to be working on your car. I'd rather have a car that's likely not to need the attention of mechanics more than the absolute minimum.
I have never not had at least decent service from dealerships. Although I have never had a car that had any significant issues where I was stranded.
I would rather have a car that's not likely to need any attention either. But having a stellar reputation as a car manufacture does not guarantee you that. You play the odds. If you play the odds it's a gamble. And since it's a gamble, I live my life without worring about what I can't control.
I can control smoking, which I why I said we think vastly differently.
#197
I would rather have a car that's not likely to need any attention either. But having a stellar reputation as a car manufacture does not guarantee you that. You play the odds. If you play the odds it's a gamble. And since it's a gamble, I live my life without worring about what I can't control.
I can control smoking, which I why I said we think vastly differently.
I can control smoking, which I why I said we think vastly differently.
Let's say the probability of encountering problems with the Infiniti G is X, and the probability of encountering problems with the BMW 3-series is X+Y. We know that Y is pretty significant based on reliability reports such as TrueDelta.
By making the decision to buy BMW rather than Infiniti, you're incurring an additional chance measured by Y of getting car trouble beyond the chance of getting car trouble with the Infiniti. Similarly, by deciding to smoke you would be incurring an additional chance of getting cancer. To avoid incurring the additional risk, you can decide to buy the Infiniti rather than the BMW, or decide not to smoke.
I'm not saying that car trouble is anywhere near as bad as getting cancer, of course! If I thought the BMW 3 was so much nicer than the G that it would be worth suffering from some potential additional reliability problems, then I would buy it, but I personally don't find it so great to be worth the extra risk or the extra cost for that matter...
#198
Registered User
You can control which car you buy.
Let's say the probability of encountering problems with the Infiniti G is X, and the probability of encountering problems with the BMW 3-series is X+Y. We know that Y is pretty significant based on reliability reports such as TrueDelta.
By making the decision to buy BMW rather than Infiniti, you're incurring an additional chance measured by Y of getting car trouble beyond the chance of getting car trouble with the Infiniti. Similarly, by deciding to smoke you would be incurring an additional chance of getting cancer. To avoid incurring the additional risk, you can decide to buy the Infiniti rather than the BMW, or decide not to smoke.
I'm not saying that car trouble is anywhere near as bad as getting cancer, of course! If I thought the BMW 3 was so much nicer than the G that it would be worth suffering from some potential additional reliability problems, then I would buy it, but I personally don't find it so great to be worth the extra risk or the extra cost for that matter...
Let's say the probability of encountering problems with the Infiniti G is X, and the probability of encountering problems with the BMW 3-series is X+Y. We know that Y is pretty significant based on reliability reports such as TrueDelta.
By making the decision to buy BMW rather than Infiniti, you're incurring an additional chance measured by Y of getting car trouble beyond the chance of getting car trouble with the Infiniti. Similarly, by deciding to smoke you would be incurring an additional chance of getting cancer. To avoid incurring the additional risk, you can decide to buy the Infiniti rather than the BMW, or decide not to smoke.
I'm not saying that car trouble is anywhere near as bad as getting cancer, of course! If I thought the BMW 3 was so much nicer than the G that it would be worth suffering from some potential additional reliability problems, then I would buy it, but I personally don't find it so great to be worth the extra risk or the extra cost for that matter...
I'm okay with living with the probability of the car getting into trouble. It's not going to end my life as lung cancer will if I smoke cigarettes, which is why I said we think vastly differently.
I personally thought the 3 was much better than the G, which is why I decided to buy it and potentially get the headaches that come with ownership.
And as I said, given the tranny thread, Infiniti has some stuff to deal with as well. At least my BMW never went into limp mode.
#199
When I checked out the 2012 BMW 3, I was hoping to find reasons to justify the extra cost and reliability risk, but I found it to be a mixed bag. It was a little nicer than the G in some ways, and less nice in others. Overall, I didn't see a compelling reason to incur the extra cost and reliability risk.
Beyond that, I didn't like the snooty attitude at the BMW dealerships around here and their packed service departments. The Infiniti dealership wanted my business, and the service department seemed accessible. This may be just be a local thing, but it affected my decision.
Also, I would have needed to special-order the manual transmission BMW 3, which means that I would have gotten an even more unappealing deal on the price...
#202
Registered User
I guess BMW dealers get their fair share of liars who are "interested" in only the "test drive" of an M3 not the actual purchase. Meh, my BMW dealer treated me like gold and the ratings on dealerratings.com back that up.
If you look at dealerratings.com you can get a sense of the good and bad dealerships.
Last edited by g37guy01; 03-03-2012 at 05:09 PM.
#203
Same here. I was favorably inclined to buy a BMW to try something different after many years of owning Nissans and Infinitis. The salesman at the first BMW dealership immediately labeled me as a "Nissan" person, assumed I couldn't afford anything more than an Infiniti G, and said I might be able to afford special ordering a stripped 3-series with manual transmission. He said that there isn't much profit for them when they sell a car without a lot of options, so they don't order them for inventory. I was interested in checking out the car, and he was interested in talking money and getting fixated on his perception of what I could afford as a "Nissan" guy.
The second dealership was even worse. No one paid any attention to me at all. Eventually I had to almost beg someone to talk to me, which he did for a few minutes before getting distracted and disappearing. I did get the opportunity to check out the 335i pretty thoroughly inside and out, but I didn't drive it.
I also noticed that the service departments in both places seemed extremely busy. Sales was also busy - they were selling cars even while acting aloof and snooty, but I guess they don't need good customer service when the cars pretty much sell themselves in affluent areas. BMW has great marketing, and many people around here (CA) think they really make the ultimate cars, and it's a privilege to be allowed to purchase one - it's like begging the Soup **** for some of that heavenly soup.
The second dealership was even worse. No one paid any attention to me at all. Eventually I had to almost beg someone to talk to me, which he did for a few minutes before getting distracted and disappearing. I did get the opportunity to check out the 335i pretty thoroughly inside and out, but I didn't drive it.
I also noticed that the service departments in both places seemed extremely busy. Sales was also busy - they were selling cars even while acting aloof and snooty, but I guess they don't need good customer service when the cars pretty much sell themselves in affluent areas. BMW has great marketing, and many people around here (CA) think they really make the ultimate cars, and it's a privilege to be allowed to purchase one - it's like begging the Soup **** for some of that heavenly soup.
#204
Registered User
Same here. I was favorably inclined to buy a BMW to try something different after many years of owning Nissans and Infinitis. The salesman at the first BMW dealership immediately labeled me as a "Nissan" person, assumed I couldn't afford anything more than an Infiniti G, and said I might be able to afford special ordering a stripped 3-series with manual transmission. He said that there isn't much profit for them when they sell a car without a lot of options, so they don't order them for inventory. I was interested in checking out the car, and he was interested in talking money and getting fixated on his perception of what I could afford as a "Nissan" guy.
The second dealership was even worse. No one paid any attention to me at all. Eventually I had to almost beg someone to talk to me, which he did for a few minutes before getting distracted and disappearing. I did get the opportunity to check out the 335i pretty thoroughly inside and out, but I didn't drive it.
I also noticed that the service departments in both places seemed extremely busy. Sales was also busy - they were selling cars even while acting aloof and snooty, but I guess they don't need good customer service when the cars pretty much sell themselves in affluent areas. BMW has great marketing, and many people around here (CA) think they really make the ultimate cars, and it's a privilege to be allowed to purchase one - it's like begging the Soup **** for some of that heavenly soup.
The second dealership was even worse. No one paid any attention to me at all. Eventually I had to almost beg someone to talk to me, which he did for a few minutes before getting distracted and disappearing. I did get the opportunity to check out the 335i pretty thoroughly inside and out, but I didn't drive it.
I also noticed that the service departments in both places seemed extremely busy. Sales was also busy - they were selling cars even while acting aloof and snooty, but I guess they don't need good customer service when the cars pretty much sell themselves in affluent areas. BMW has great marketing, and many people around here (CA) think they really make the ultimate cars, and it's a privilege to be allowed to purchase one - it's like begging the Soup **** for some of that heavenly soup.
Lexus has great marketing and I can see how they make you feel it's a priviledge to be allowed to purchase one. Wait, I can't believe more than one manufacturer pulls this same stuff.
My Infiniti dealer didn't have this attitude. I guess it's true, they are number 2 and they try harder. At the end of the day, I'm buying the car and I'm finding the right dealerhsip to sell it to me. Though. I'd rather have a crappy salesperson that gives me a good deal, than a smooth talker that doesn't.
#205
Yes - Infiniti tries harder, so they get my business. I didn't try Lexus, but heard from colleagues that they are indeed similar in attitude to BMW around here. Lexus cars have much better reliability ratings than BMW, though.
#206
Registered User
At the end of the day, BMW sells a lot of cars. It seems not everybody worries about price and reliability ratings.
#207
True, if I was rich-enough I wouldn't worry about those things either... For example, my boss owns about a dozen very expensive European cars (BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Ferrari, Bugatti), some of which always seem to have problems, but it's no big deal for him. Some of the cars are always in working order, and the dealers send people to his home or office to pick up and drop off cars before and after service.
#208
Registered User
True, if I was rich-enough I wouldn't worry about those things either... For example, my boss owns about a dozen very expensive European cars (BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Ferrari, Bugatti), some of which always seem to have problems, but it's no big deal for him. Some of the cars are always in working order, and the dealers send people to his home or office to pick up and drop off cars before and after service.
You hit the nail on the head, you are not the target demographic for a BMW. We buy cars for our reasons. You and I debating this point will not change BMWs successful perception to those who want the cars.
#209
I personally don't like spending more than somewhere in the $40K's at today's prices for a car, and then I don't want any grief from it for many years... I achieved this reliability with Maximas and Infinitis, but not with an Audi and a Subaru that gave me a lot of trouble in the past, and I was too afraid of repeating that with the BMW.
#210
Registered User
Don't know which ones give him the most grief. It seems like his Mercedes cars need the most frequent repairs, but those are also the ones he drives the most, so I don't know if that means anything.
I personally don't like spending more than somewhere in the $40K's at today's prices for a car, and then I don't want any grief from it for many years... I achieved this reliability with Maximas and Infinitis, but not with an Audi and a Subaru that gave me a lot of trouble in the past, and I was too afraid of repeating that with the BMW.
I personally don't like spending more than somewhere in the $40K's at today's prices for a car, and then I don't want any grief from it for many years... I achieved this reliability with Maximas and Infinitis, but not with an Audi and a Subaru that gave me a lot of trouble in the past, and I was too afraid of repeating that with the BMW.
My Forester XT has 90K miles. I had it in for one warranty repair; to fix the latch release on the rear seat retractor.