ONEighty

iTrader: (15)

Oh yeah...

Sports sedan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

SaMaster14

^i think that definition means sporty in the sense of looks and design features, not driving capability. Sure the camry may look sportier than some of it's competition, but that thing sure as h*ll does not drove like a sports car. (the camry was the car my driving school had me use when learning how to drive before I got my license).

SCWells72

So here's an interesting question: which is more of a "sport sedan", a big floaty sedan with 400+HP that can rip 0-60s in under 5 seconds but can't corner for anything, or a mid-sized sedan with 225HP that hits 60 in 6 seconds but has a properly tuned suspension that allows for telepathic cornering and carving of curvy roads? Assuming you have an answer to that question, why did you answer that way?

Before BMW entered the horsepower wars with their standard line (not the M line), they definitely didn't post the best acceleration times or the highest horsepower numbers, but they were still consistently rated as the best sport sedans on the market across the product line because overall, they gave the best overall driving experience (obviously subjectively speaking, but you have to admit that the press was pretty unanimous on this for a solid decade at least).

For example, the second-generation Acura 3.2TL had more horsepower and better acceleration numbers than the (then top of the line) 328i, but it was encumbered by its FWD layout and lack of available standard transmission.

The 5-series is a lineup of sport sedans, all the way from the entry models up to the M5. Even the stock suspension setup is better than what most of the competition provides, and when equipped with sport suspension, it's still generally considered the benchmark.

I'm not a BMW fanboy. In fact, the one experience I've had owning a BMW was very much a mixed bag. However, saying that any 5-series is *not* a sport sedan is just wrong based on virtually any definition of sport sedan. It's a four-door with a RWD layout, exceptionally well-tuned suspension, smooth engine, and available standard transmission. By this same argument the Infiniti G37 (non-S) isn't a sport sedan, though the G37S 6MT is? Doesn't make sense...

Tsugumo

I think the 528i is "sportier" than most other sedans in its class based on handling and braking. But, since its lacking in power I find it hard to call it a true luxury sports sedan.

ONEighty

iTrader: (15)

It sure as hell does feel like a sports car compared to cars like Town Cars, DeVilles and Mercury Gran Marque. Vehicles took a big step in the last decade, and all new designs (appearance and feel) are based on a sporty aspect of it being a car.

Just because the Camry doesn't handle or feel like a sport sedan compared to a G37, or a Subaru STi, or Audi A4 doesn't mean it's not a sport sedan, because look at the cars its up against in its line... an Avalon?

Same goes for the Honda Accord... in it's line up, it's a Sports Sedan.

You guys need to look at the bigger picture... Read the wiki link I posted, you'll see where I'm coming from. Check the list...

• Acura CSX Type S
• Acura RL A-Spec
• Acura TL A-Spec/Type-S
• Alfa Romeo 156 GTA
• Aston Martin Rapide
• Audi S4, Audi RS4
• Audi S5, Audi RS5 Sportback
• Audi S6, Audi RS6
• Audi S8
• BMW Alpina B3
• BMW Alpina B5
• BMW Alpina B7
• BMW M3
• BMW M5
• Cadillac CTS-V
• Cadillac STS-V
• Chevrolet Cobalt SS
• Chrysler 300C SRT-8
• Dodge Charger SRT-8
• Dodge Neon SRT-4
• Eagle Vision
• FPV F6
• FPV GT
• Ford SVT Contour
• Ford Focus ST (American version)
• Honda Civic Type R - sedan variants
• Honda Civic Si - sedan variants
• Honda Accord Type R, Honda Accord Euro R
• HSV Clubsport
• HSV Grange
• Infiniti G35/37
• Infiniti M35/37/45/56
• Jaguar XFR
• Jaguar XJR/Supersport
• Jaguar S-Type R
• Lexus IS-F
• Lincoln MKS
• Lotus Carlton
• Maserati Quattroporte
• Mazda6 MPS
• Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG
• Mercedes-Benz CLS63 AMG
• Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG
• Mercedes-Benz S65 AMG
• Mercury Marauder
• Mitsubishi Galant VR-4
• Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution
• Nissan Maxima
• Nissan Skyline GT-R - sedan variants
• Pontiac G8 GXP
• Pontiac Grand Prix GXP
• Porsche Panamera
• Saab 9-3 Aero
• Saab 9-5 Aero
• Škoda Octavia vRS
• Subaru Impreza WRX STI
• Toyota TRD Aurion - aka Camry
  
• Vauxhall VXR8
• Volkswagen Jetta GLI
• Volkswagen Passat R36
• Volvo 850 R
• Volvo S60 R

A Nissan Maxima, and a BMW M5 are both Sports Sedans, but after that they start breaking down into a more specific class where the M5 is a High Performance Luxury Sport Sedan (thats a mouth full lol)

hadokenuh

Very good discussions so far! Keep them coming guys!

IMO, I define sport sedan based on:

1. 0-60 test: should be around 6s
2. Handling: brake, suspension, etc.
3. Look

Then comes "luxury":

1. Unique look
2. Nice interior with amenities and gadgets like nice leather, NAV, Bluetooth, heated/cooled seat, backup/all-around camera, HID, etc.
3. Much less road/wind noise
4. Good service

By that token, I'd say:

1. First gen Mazda 6 V6 is a sport sedan. It accelerates and handles well, specially with a MT.

2. Camry is not a sport sedan. A Camry SE V6 might be a sport sedan but it's pushing.

3. G37 (any model) is a sport sedan. G37S is a true sport sedan. The G is also a luxury sport sedan.

4. 528 is a luxury sport sedan although its strength is not acceleration but it excels in other departments though.

5. Lexus IS350 is a sport luxury sedan because it emphasizes luxury, then sport although its straighline acceleration is great.

4drScreamer

Try the Lexus IS F. 350? Can be improved but has the basics to be good.

Bo2point0

Good discussion.

I feel that the Camry and Accord and their competitors are more geared toward economy than anything sport oriented.

The Lexus CT200h is advertised as a sport luxury car, but lets face it. It is slower than the prius and handles worse than the Honda Odyssey.

6mtg37s

iTrader: (1)

First off, the 528 doesn't do 60 in 6 seconds.. more like 8. Second the suspension isn't "exceptionally" well tuned.. if that's what you think is great handling then man get out there and drive some better sedans lmaooo. Just because a car has good suspension doesn't make it a "sports sedan".. It needs some power to accompany the suspension, this is where the 528 turns into rubbish. All this due to BMW's dumb decision to always put outdated and weak engines in big boats.. just like the modern day F10 528 which also lacks power. Oh and last thing, don't think RWD means its so much greater then other FWD cars, hell almost every non M bmw handles like a fwd with its disgusting understeer.

stormgate

iTrader: (2)

when the list talks about the camry... it talks about the TRD Aurion.



not a stock camry

SCWells72

In my original question, I wasn't referencing the 528i's acceleration time. I was asking a general question meant to get folks thinking about the extent to which each of acceleration, handling, etc., contributes to the notion of "sport sedan" since the thread title is "Definition of Sport Luxury Sedan". I raised the question because so many people (including manufacturers) think that a four-door that can do 0-60 really fast but can't handle to save its life is a viable "sport sedan" when, at best, it's a muscle car.

When I bought my first sport sedan in the mid-to-late '90s, I didn't quite understand the various components and what each contributed to the overall experience, so I was also perplexed why the automotive press praised "the almighty 3-series" when it seemed underpowered and overpriced relative to what I perceived to be the primary competition at that time. I saw higher horsepower numbers, better posted acceleration times, and a lower price for similar features, and I went that direction. Now I'm on my fourth sport sedan (Acura 3.2TL, Lexus GS430 L-Tuned, Audi S4 6MT, and now Infiniti G37S 6MT), and over the years I've tried out multiple drive trains (FWD, RWD x 2, and AWD), engine types (V6 x 2 and V8 x 2), countries of origin (Japan x 3 and Germany), and price points ($31K up to just shy of $60K).

I'm very familiar with various suspension qualities and configurations, especially given that I *completely* swapped out the suspension on the GS430 (shocks, springs, struts, sways, etc.) and dramatically upgraded the suspension on my wife's BMW Z3 2.8 5MT (struts and sways). If you drive any 5-series even with the stock suspension back-to-back with the analogous Lexus GS, MB E-class, etc., you'll see huge differences in ride quality! Most of the competitors suspensions are floaty in stock configuration and only a bit better even with sport suspension. Infiniti unabashedly targets BMW model-for-model, so the M-series suspension is tuned much more like the 5-series, perhaps even a little firmer. Audi also does a pretty decent job, but of course Quattro's handling characteristics change the entire feel of the car.

As for needing power to be considered a sport sedan, sport car, etc., I still don't agree. Power is definitely important and unquestionably fun, but the Mazda Miata/MX5 is still considered one of the most pure production sports cars available today even without opting for the Mazdaspeed version, and it has a 167HP four-cylinder engine and takes almost 7 seconds to reach 60. However, it handles astoundingly well! Similar with the MINI Cooper (my wife drove a MINI Cooper S 6MT until our recent family expansion), and of course that's a FWD car, so I know very well that FWD can make for amazing handling. One of my close friends is heavily involved in autocross with his Mazdaspeed Miata and his wife's 911S, and he pointed out that the MINI S is placed in the same class as the Corvette. Obviously in a straight line these guys aren't competitive, but on a windy course where you never get out of 2nd or 3rd gear...

My comment about FWD was around manufacturers who keep a FWD configuration but keep bumping up power into unusable levels to keep their "sport sedans" competitive. Acura is a perfect example because, until recently, the TL-S was still FWD and produced close to ~300HP...all you experience is torque steer on launch. The MINI gets away with it because it makes closer to 200HP, and even then my wife's S had a decent amount of torque steer if you really wound it up and dropped the clutch!

So having said all that, I certainly try to find the best balance of power and handling (and price...even more so now that I'm a family man) in my sport sedans; that's how I ended up with the G37S 6MT. But "sport" does not equate to "horsepower" or "0-60". My assertion is that handling is at least as important, and likely more so. I remember one of BMW's marketing statements back in the day being (paraphrased) "our cars must handle faster than they drive".

Anyway, we can certainly agree to disagree on this. That's what discussion forums are for. Just wanted to let you know that I'm not speaking out of ignorance here...I've been doing the "sport sedan" thing for quite a while and have tried out many different expressions of the concept.

4drScreamer

Miata? Mini Cooper? WTF? Is thread about sport sedans?

Forget definition of "sport" let's define "sedan" then we can begin to debate "luxury."

SCWells72

I wasn't using those two as examples of sedans. I was using them as examples of low power and FWD cars respectively that are considered some of the most pure examples of production sports cars on the market today. Unfortunately I'm not aware of any sport sedan that serves the same purposes. The rest of my post was squarely focused on (what are at least marketed as) (entry) luxury sport sedans.

hadokenuh

We don't have it here in the States though! But with no doubt I agree this is a sport sedan.

D_Nyholm

iTrader: (2)

I have to say that SCWells has the best grasp on what a sports sedan is and what it involves. Handling as a whole can not be defined by slalom, figure 8's, and skidpad grip like the magazines show it. The car has a 'feel' that cannot be quantified. Just because a car outgrips another on a skidpad doesn't make it handle any better.

I would say the G is a sports sedan, but it is no more a sports sedan than a 528i.