Black Betty

iTrader: (60)

Thanks for the heads up. As I see it there's absolutely no point in my bringing it up now. There's no way they'd admit any shortcoming on their part and certainly won't go back to complete the job correctly. However I'll consider it a ace up my sleeve should I ever have ANY issues related to this problem develop in the future, no matter the mileage. If it happens I'll use it as leverage for no cost repairs. I appreciate you mentioning it and ok glad sharing my ordeal was able to help someone else.

vqsmile

Just to follow up here on my own status (Thanks again to BB for this thread) ...

FINALLY, after a whole week in the shop, the dealership has found the leak in the oil galley gasket on the inner timing cover. They confirmed it is indeed a covered repair under my (now expired) Elite warranty, since they started the job before the warranty ran out. This dealership's policy is to replace the entire assemblies involved, so rather than just replacing the gaskets and cam seals, they are installing entirely new inner timing cover and cam cover assemblies. The list price on just those parts alone is over $1500, and after they bill out the 18 hours or so for the full-ride repair (at $173/hr.), the labor will exceed $3k alone, making this perhaps the most expensive repair order for one of these jobs I've ever seen. I'm sure that corporate will not cough up that much internally to repay the dealership, but if it were you or I and we were out of warranty . . . just shoot me now!

Basically, for me, the news is all good, but I would STRONGLY urge anyone who is nearing the end of their warranty, or contemplating the purchase of a used second gen car (i.e. HR or VHR motor), to have your oil pressure tested! It is not hard to do and the savings could be astronomical.

Without further adieu, here's the juicy pics of that leaking gasket from my car:





Closing thoughts:

Consider this: my car had never shown any symptoms; no CEL, no poor idling, no power loss, no roughness whatsoever. If it weren't for the fact that my warranty was ending, I would never even have checked it! It had 5 psi at idle and 41 psi at 2k rpm. We can also infer from this that our car's low oil pressure warning/indicators are worthless.

Even though this will all be covered by my warranty, I have to be honest that this has seriously shaken my estimation of Infiniti as a brand. I do love my car, but I'm pretty sure this will be my last Infiniti purchase. If my own experience is anything close to typical, I would bet there are literally thousands of people driving around blithely unaware that their car is slowly bleeding out internally. Once the symptoms become external, the car is typically out of warranty coverage so repairs will predominantly fall upon the consumer. I do believe Infiniti knows this full well too. For me, that's unforgivable.

Dough1397

How does one have their oil pressure tested? Is it DIY-able? Also, what are the long term effects of this?

PS: thanks for the pics!

Black Betty

iTrader: (60)

Thanks for the follow up vqsmile. I'm stoked that you were proactive and got this taken care of on their dime instead of out of your own pocket like I had to. Hopefully our examples will help others not to get screwed by Nissan/Infiniti's Mickey Mouse engineering in this area. Looking at your photos, as well as my own and others who have had this issue (clean as the day it was assembled), there is nothing they can blame but their own mistake in choosing materials for that gasket. Obviously no auto manufacturer has the integrity to take the responsibility and fix these issues if they don't have to, so I was unsurprisingly denied any consideration of out of warranty coverage by Infiniti Consumer Affairs. I'm waiting for the first FI guys to experience this and post about it. Unfortunately it's bound to happen soon.

You are new here but have contributed more of value than 99% of our members. There's only so many different ways one can view Plastidipped body parts, Vossen wheels, and sick slammed hella flush suspensions, yo!

Fortunately this thread is still on the first page of results when someone Google searches "Infiniti Consumer Affairs" or "Infiniti Consumer Affairs Experience". Hooray!!!

vqsmile

You can have it done at a dealership (Infiniti or Nissan), or pretty much any competent independent with a mechanical test gauge. It is very simple to do and shouldn't take more than 20-30 minutes, but I expect they would all try and charge you for a full hour anyway, so figure the cost at whatever an hour of labor runs in your area. The factory service manual lists the minimum oil pressure for the HR motor at 14 psi at idle (650rpm), and 43 psi at 2k rpm, with the oil temp at 176*F. Bear in mind there are other factors that can cause low oil pressure in our cars, but the predominant/common reason will be those oil galley gaskets.

You can definitely DIY the test or you can just install a separate oil pressure gauge to allow ongoing oil pressure monitoring. I installed a separate aftermarket gauge (total cost around $125) and discovered it that way, but be advised that as soon as I took it into the dealer, they couldn't proceed with any oil pressure diagnosis (per corporate) until I removed both my aftermarket oil pressure gauge as well as my WIX oil filter. The car must be 100% stock as far as anything affecting oil pressure is concerned. Regardless, I will reinstall my gauge as soon as I get the car back.

I'm not entirely sure what you meant by "long term effects", but neither the testing of oil pressure, nor the installation of an aftermarket gauge will have any long term effects (other than your edification and avoiding impact$ to your wallet). If you meant what the long term effects are of having low oil pressure, well they are many.

The entire variable valve timing in our cars is actuated by oil pressure that is precisely varied and regulated. If there is sufficient leakage within the oil system, such that it cannot maintain adequate pressure, then cam phasing will likely fall out of range, you will throw CEL's, and your car will run very poorly. Additionally, if the disintegrating gasket material is allowed to contaminate the oil passages in and around the cam sprockets, then further damage is also possible, with substantial additional parts costs too. Make no mistake about it, the valve timing system on these cars is nothing short of spectacular, efficiently squeezing nearly every bit out power out of the engine, but when it goes haywire, the complexity and costs of repairing it are just as spectacular. Seeing it all caused by a cheap little gasket is beyond disappointing.

Cliff Notes:
Low oil pressure is bad and potentially leads to $$$$.
Testing/monitoring is easy and relatively cheap.
Knowing your psi = profit




It is really I that owe you a debt of gratitude BB. It was this very thread, and the clearly demonstrative pictures within, that opened my eyes to this inherent flaw in our engines and inspired me to check for oil pressure before running out of warranty coverage. If you're ever up here in the SF bay area, beers are on me!

PS. The way I see it, the BEST way to hold Infiniti accountable and make them pay up for as many of these repairs as possible is to spread the word and have people do these proactive oil pressure checks before they're out of warranty. My hope is that as a result of this thread Infiniti dealerships are soon filled with customers that are owed a fix, but for lack of any external indications (yet), didn't even know any problem existed (until they checked the oil pressure proactively).

Gio37

iTrader: (1)

Very informative post vqsmile
I agree having the dealer check the oil pressure before warranty is out.

In my case, about 5 months ago I took my G to the dealer due to a bad MSC and during their testing the oil pressure was also tested, they found the oil pressure was low and needed the oil galley gasket replaced.
They even noted on the paperwork that they checked for codes but no codes were found but the oil pressure was abnormal below minimum specification.
My G had under 50K miles when this happened......I wonder how many Gs are out there with the same issue.

I was lucky the whole job was cover under my elite extended warranty. I for sure will have them check the oil pressure again before the warranty is out in about 1 1/2 years.

Dough1397

vqsmile, thank you for answering my questions thoroughly.

I will look into measuring my oil pressure as a DIY after I read up some more. I am completely out of warranty now, thus any repairs will be an out of pocket expense.

Black Betty

iTrader: (60)

I don't do social media, but for those of you who do, feel free to link to this on your Facebook, Instagram, or whatever other social media sites are out there that people use that I don't even know about.

Also feel free to post on any other Nissan or Infiniti forums that will allow it. Any VQ engine car might have to deal with this issue. I hope everyone else has it checked or deals with the issue before warranty expires. Nissan/Infiniti hasn't (and probably isn't going to) issued a TSB on it.

vqsmile

If you should face doing the repair on your own, remember that you don't have to buy the whole assemblies involved. As mentioned earlier in this thread, you can purchase just the oil galley gaskets for the inner timing cover:




and the oil seals for the cam covers:





Eliminating the cost of those assemblies can save you over a $1000 and minimize the repair complexity significantly. Removing that inner timing cover is a major undertaking!

Also, here is a link to another thread (on G35Driver) with lots if info and comments from some who have performed the job themselves. Fortunately, this thread was actually started by an Infiniti service tech who posts over there: Cause for the dreaded P0011/P0021 codes that everyone is curious about - G35Driver



They actually did issue a TSB (clear back in Jan. '08) implying they know full well what's been going on with these engines:

http://www.infinitig37.com/TSB/ITB06-023a.pdf


Basically, they are telling their techs not to waste time swapping parts and diag time for these valve timing issues, just go right to checking the oil pressure. Notice how they don't actually elaborate on the (obviously known, but not expressed in print) fix.

Black Betty

iTrader: (60)

Thanks for the info. I searched and didn't find that TSB.

Gio37

iTrader: (1)

mmmm, I dont see the VQ37 engine listed on the 2008 TSB

"APPLIED ENGINES: VQ35; VH41, VK45; VK56 "

vqsmile

True enough. I hear what you are saying, but consider:

That TSB was issued in January of '08. The VHR motor had only just debuted in Aug '07 in the G37 coupe. ( i.e. the car had only been out for 4 months). Furthermore, it is my understanding** (though I have not personally verified it) that the same gasket part numbers are used (or fit) on the oil galleys of both the HR and VHR motors, even though Infiniti doesn't disclose the number on the G37 parts lists. Regardless, we know they knew these same paper gaskets had been blowing out for years on models with virtually identical gaskets, so why would they not expect the same from the G37's ??



**For absolute confirmation purposes, I think it would be good to hear from someone that has actually installed one the oil galley replacement gaskets (13533-JK21A and/or 13533-JK21B) on a G37 motor successfully. Or, if anybody has a link to that info, please chime in.

Black Betty

iTrader: (60)

I can confirm that a VQVHR37 in a G37 has been repaired (under warranty) by simply replacing the gaskets and not the entire rear timing cover. I realize that my saying so is only hearsay, but I do have proof from a member of this forum (repair invoice from the dealership) that I can't post because it wasn't my car and I don't have his permission to share it publicly. The work was completed on 2/2/14 at an Infiniti dealership.

Varjo

Wow, seriously important thread. This should possibly be a sticky. Thanks so much for posting this guys. You have potentially saved people tens of thousands of dollars.

G37from818

I just bought my 11 G37 Coupe a couple of months ago. If I had seen this post I would not have purchased my car. As soon as I am ready for an oil change, I will have the dealer check the oil pressure, since the car still have 7 months left on the warranty.