Gio37

iTrader: (1)

wow, I did not know that

mykke101

If you are going to give terrible advice keep it to yourself. Braking in neutral is not fine, you actually consume MORE gas and are not fully in control of your vehicle. (a rear end while in neutral for example is far far far more dangerous than if you were rear ended with the car in gear.) Downshifting properly causes no more wear than accelerating in gear. I'm assuming you just have terrible clutch control to come to this conclusion?

Also when properly rev matching or double clutching your brakes are doing the majority of the braking still 95%, the main reason to downshift is so that you are in the proper powerband if anything were to happen i.e. need to accelerate quickly. I am not telling the poor guy to downshift improperly putting stress on the tranny / clutch and not to use your brakes.

Learning to properly double clutch and heel toe brake will NOT burn out a clutch any faster than normal wear and tear. Besides what is the point of MT if you are not using it as such?

JSolo

iTrader: (14)

To the OP, as you can see, there's a variety of difference of opinion of how and when to shift. I think eventually you will develop what works well for you. Personally, if i'm approaching a light that's clearly red, and will likely be red for the next 30-60 seconds, I see no reason to be downshifting. Brakes are indeed cheaper to replace than syncros and a clutch. I'll put it into neutral and coast to the light.

If the light happens to turn green before I get there, then I'll put it into a gear appropriate for the speed i'm going that will also put the engine at about 2K rpm. A general rule of thumb is 1 gear for every 10mph -- 1st gear up to 10, 2nd up to 20, 3rd up to 30, 4th up to 40, etc.. The way this car is geared, the above isn't entirely correct, but gives you an idea.

@mykke101,
Please explain the reason for blipping. When starting off from a standstill, I'll typically let the clutch out until the friction point. Then apply small throttle while continuing to engage clutch until fully engaged. Once clutch is fully out/engaged, additional throttle is applied to continue acceleration.

How high are you blipping? At what rpm are you starting to engage the clutch?

Also, something odd I discovered on this car. When cold, I don't add any throttle while backing out from the garage. I found early on that additional throttle only brings the rpms higher than need be. My old camaro's first gear was taller, so maybe that's why. If I didn't add throttle, it was possible to stall. The g's first gear is shorter. At idle it's possible to stay at 3-4 mph, the camaro was closer to about 8 mph at idle in first.

Finally, clutch action changes slightly when the car is cold compared to full operating temp.

cruzmisl

No need to get heated in here.

Just need to promote good habits.

I think when he's comfortable he can downshift more, but I don't think now is the time--he's still learning how to shift to go forward. lol

JSolo

iTrader: (14)

Sure being in gear at all times allows you to accelerate if need be, but how does being in neutral coasting waste gas??

mykke101

It just from personal experience with our cars clutch. The blip is very minimal, maybe an extra 500 rpm while moving past the engagement point then a normal release. I find i can release the clutch quicker this way. Try it out and let me know if you find it similar.

For reverse I do the exact same thing in the cold Canadian mornings!

TinsleyC

I drove a 330i home for a friend the other day, it as the first manual I've driven in 15 years - and it was like riding a bicycle, once you learn you never forget. I surprised myself ho comfortable and easy it felt.

A habit I had developed back then quickly surfaced - pulling it out of gear to neutral as I slowed down, without using the clutch - in other words, staying in a higher gear as I approached a red light, until the engine idle speed and the drive train had no friction, and it just pops out of gear. Is there a name for that?

If done smoothly, does this hurt anything?

mykke101

When a car is decelerating ZERO fuel is injected into the cylinders. The car is still turning over but because no extra momentum is needed the injectors are not working. This is true ATLEAST until the engine RPM drops below or inline with the idle threshold of your car or the obviously if the accelerator is depressed. NOW when in neutral the car begins injecting at the same rate as in idle (which for most cars is around 1 gph).

Here is a pretty good article that explains why this is:
Coasting in Neutral or Gear to Save Gas - Coasting and Fuel Economy - Popular Mechanics

mykke101

Agreed, it was not my intention to have him burn out his clutch in a couple weeks

JSolo

iTrader: (14)

Interesting read. I think the fuel saving aspect is negligible. IMO, the only valid reason would be to have power for an escape route if needed.

Also, I think each situation is unique. If approaching a light where I need to stop, I'll take it out of gear immediately. If I'm in slow moving traffic, then remaining in gear is important. When going downhill it is important to remain in gear to control speed. When approaching a corner, it is important to have downshifted to a gear appropriate to give sufficient power for the drive out - this downshifting should be done before entering the corner (to retain chassis stability through the corner).

I just don't see the need to put undo wear/tear on the trans/clutch downshifting through the gears when coming to a stop in an urban environment. ymmv

alikhan2004

First of all I appreciate and thank you all who responded and gave me advice but OMG I'm getting overloaded with what to do. So what should I do if I'm approaching a red light or stop sign? I usually throw my car in neutral and coast to the stop sign or red light and start from first gear but what should I really do? Also cruzmisl is right let me figure out how to move forward perfectly first before I start downshifting. But at the same time what should I do in the scenario I gave if I'm on 4th gear and need to make a turn should I downshift or should I just continue driving on 4th?

Gio37

iTrader: (1)

Same here, I was a little surprise how comfortable & easy it was dring my G; the last time I drove a MT was about 15 years ago....my 280ZX

cruzmisl

If you're coming to a red light stop sign, just slow down with your brakes with the car in gear. Put it in neutral before the RPMs get too low, maybe 2 seconds or so before you actually come to a stop. You can put it in neutral earlier, but in many states coasting in neutral is actually illegal and in my opinion coasting too much in neutral is just a bad habit.

The following tips are things you will learn by yourself by learning the car. You may feel like you don't have much control over it, but WITH TIME AND PRACTICE, you will know exactly what gear you need to be in at any given time, and when the best time to change gears will be.

First of all, since you're new to this, you'll probably be focusing too much on the numbers and not on how the car feels. That's fine, but just try your best to get a feel for it.

Now regarding the situation you asked about, let's say your coming to a red light and you want to turn, and then it turns green.

For downshifting to 3rd or 2nd gear, there are specific speeds/rev ranges that you can just shift to those gears without worrying about blipping the throttle.

If you're in 4th gear and you've slowed down to around 18-20MPH (I think 20mph in 4th gear is like 1100 RPM or so), you can just push in the clutch and go from 4th to 3rd and get a smooth shift. No need to blip the throttle. You won't get great acceleration out of the turn but it will be fine. If you slow down even more (like really slow...6-8mph), you can put it into 2nd before the turn without blipping and get a smooth, non-jerky shift.

If you stay in 4th gear through the turn, unless you mobbed that turn going 35 mph, you will be in bogville and going slow as sh*t.

For me, the best place to practice this exact situation was in my neighborhood (as long as each turn doesn't have a stop sign) at night time. You don't have to worry about traffic and you can go up as high as 4th gear while staying 25-30 MPH. This is how I learned what speeds I can go 4th->3rd (around 20 mph), or 3rd to 2nd (6-8mph) without blipping the throttle.

You will never downshift to 1st unless you're stopped or BARELY moving.

While I hope these situational things help, the best thing you can do is just drive slowly and carefully and get the feel of the car.

Also, as I said before, when upshifting or downshifting, always remember that the stick will auto-center itself. When going from 2nd to 3rd, you don't need carry it all the way across (you might accidently find yourself in 5th), you can push it out of 2nd, it'll go toward the middle, and push it up to 3rd. Or when going from 5th to 4th, drop it out of 5th, let it go center and just pull it back to 4th. OF COURSE, i'm not saying to wait a full second to do that, but let the auto-centering nature of the stick help guide the motion of how you shift with some of the gears. It does that for a reason.

mykke101

Negligible yes but like anything it all adds up. The main reason is definitely safety. Having your car coast in neutral is dangerous. You have no control over your engine and you are relying completely on your brakes and the awareness of the drivers around you. In order to be a proactive driver you should always keep you vehicle in the proper powerband. This is why automatic is usually the better approach for a less experienced driver. A lazy manual driver is a dangerous driver. Learn the correct way to control your MT car from the beginning will pay dividends in the long run.

Once again the extra wear/tear is negligible. More use on the clutch will obviously impact the life but the main wear is still on your acceleration through gears. Properly rev match downshifting is no harder on the clutch than properly shifting into a higher gear. The main wear is still almost entirely on your stop start proficiency (which is why it is so important to become good at this!)

@cruzmisl

Good Advice, learning the proper points to downshift without the need to blip is probably the best place to start. This way you are not concerned on how much to blip and are also not putting additional stress on your drive-train while learning!

Things I would concentrate on for now:

1. Learn to start stop confidently
2. Get a feel for at which speeds you should be in which gear, this will transcend to your downshifting eventually
3. Brake while in gear moving to neutral once your RPM drop under idle threshold
4. Once you are more comfortable begin to downshift when your RPM drops into the lower gears natural powerband. (Downshifting past 3rd is usually not needed.)
5. Downshifting for corners will come with time, one thing to NOT do is neutral coast a corner.
6.
7. Profit

After you have mastered the above you can begin to move onto "advanced" techniques. After-all these are the techniques that separate a MT from an AT and are what makes MT so superior.

I'm glad you are asking for advice it may be intimidating at first but it will be worth it; more "green" MT drivers should be doing exactly what you are doing and learning correctly from the start.

hinomura

iTrader: (4)

It's called clutchless shifting. When you change gears and match engine RPMs to the wheels RPMs. What you're doing is technically only half of clutchless shifting since you're not re-engaging the gears again so it probably isn't that bad for your car but it probably isn't the greatest for it either. I personally would not do it but to each his own.