Driving the 6MT more smoothly
04-02-2009, 11:26 AM
#16
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Skipping gears, with proper rev matching, is fine, but it's true that it would be more "detrimental" to the transmission than shifting sequentially, which is what you should usually be doing for most driving.
Skipping gears will put more wear on the synchros as it now has to account for a larger difference in rotational speed for the gears to match up than before. Of course, it's up to you as to how much of an effect it will actually be on the longevity of your synchros, much like the double clutching technique to "save wear" on your synchros.
Skipping gears will put more wear on the synchros as it now has to account for a larger difference in rotational speed for the gears to match up than before. Of course, it's up to you as to how much of an effect it will actually be on the longevity of your synchros, much like the double clutching technique to "save wear" on your synchros.
04-02-2009, 11:31 AM
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Skipping gears, with proper rev matching, is fine, but it's true that it would be more "detrimental" to the transmission than shifting sequentially, which is what you should usually be doing for most driving.
Skipping gears will put more wear on the synchros as it now has to account for a larger difference in rotational speed for the gears to match up than before. Of course, it's up to you as to how much of an effect it will actually be on the longevity of your synchros, much like the double clutching technique to "save wear" on your synchros.
Skipping gears will put more wear on the synchros as it now has to account for a larger difference in rotational speed for the gears to match up than before. Of course, it's up to you as to how much of an effect it will actually be on the longevity of your synchros, much like the double clutching technique to "save wear" on your synchros.
Telling someone who cannot even drive their car properly, yet alone rev-match, to skip gears, is quite careless.
04-02-2009, 12:33 PM
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I'm not sure how long you guys have been driving stick for but they way to get this car, or any other car for that matter, to drive smoothly is this:
When accelerating from a complete stop most of us let out clutch to the release point and gradually get on the gas with the same speed. When shifting to 2nd, 3rd, etc you want to do the same thing but since you are already moving you have a little more leeway and don't need to be as careful. The more you match the smoother the shift. Make sense?
When accelerating from a complete stop most of us let out clutch to the release point and gradually get on the gas with the same speed. When shifting to 2nd, 3rd, etc you want to do the same thing but since you are already moving you have a little more leeway and don't need to be as careful. The more you match the smoother the shift. Make sense?
04-02-2009, 01:31 PM
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I started using 1st just to get the tires rolling and immediately going right into second keeping the rpms fairly low 2kish. Then progressing as normal.
This gave me a smooth shift with out the pause I had before when trying to go 1-2 with higher rpms.
This gave me a smooth shift with out the pause I had before when trying to go 1-2 with higher rpms.
04-02-2009, 01:58 PM
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Thanks for all the replies, just the info I was looking for. I've had the car less than a week. I'm sure that once I'm more used to it, my question will answer itself.
04-02-2009, 02:25 PM
#21
Skipping gears does not mess up the tranny at all if you do it properly, rev-match is very important in this car when downshifting. Skipping gears while upshifting is fine also as long as your doing it to maintain speed. Dont go from 2nd to 6th and floor it obviously. As far as driving it smoothly, yes this car does take some getting use to because you do have to ride the clutch a little do get smooth becasue of how abrubt the grab point is, it's also very high in it's travel which doesnt help. I think that's why I've seen some members burning out their clutch at 14k and 18k miles because the clutch was probably ridden alot. Overall it's a blast to drive manual, just wish it had a little smoother drivetrain.
Skipping gears WILL hurt the tranny, even with proper revmatching. Let me explain why.
First the basics. This is your drivetrain:
Engine (flywheel) <-> Clutch <-> midshaft <-> (synchro) Gear <-> Driveshaft <-> Diff <-> Wheel
To simplify for this explanation, We are going to group the drivetrain into 3 parts.
1. Engine (engine, flywheel)
2. Midshaft (Clutch, midshaft)
3. Wheels (synchro, gear, driveshaft, diff, wheels).
There are two major connecting points in the drivetrain that are being used when you are shifting a standard transmission. When you change gears, you are changing the connection between groups 2 and 3, utilizing the synchros. When you engage the clutch, you are connecting or disconnecting groups 1 and 2.
E.g., if you are in neutral, then the wheels are disconnected from the midshaft (and thus the engine) [connection between 2 and 3], even if 1 and two are connected.
If you step on the clutch, then you are disconnecting the engine from the wheels by disconnecting 1 and 2, even if you are in gear.
Now, the reason why you should no skip gears.
The synchros on your tranny are made so that the midshaft and wheel speeds match up (given a certain ratio, depending on the gear) when you are shifting gears with the clutch depressed.
When you are in 3rd gear at 40mph, and you downshift to 2nd, this is a breakdown of what happens.
1. you depress the clutch. 1 and 2 are disengaged
1A. you are still in 3rd and rolling at 40 mph; midshaft is spinning the appropriate speed. (approximate midshaft speed roughly 3800 rpm, engine speed in 3rd.)
2. you disengage 6th, disconnecting 2 and 3.
3. you engage 2nd, reconnecting 2 and 3, but with a different ratio (gear).
3a. as you're engaging 2nd, the synchros work to speed up the midshaft to the appropriate speed for 2nd gear. In most cars, at a given speed, the midshaft must spin 50% faster in 2nd than in 3rd. (midshaft speed cranks up 5700 rpm)
4. you let up on the clutch, reconecting 1 and 2.
Now, lets do it again, but going from 40mph in 6th to 2nd.
1. you depress the clutch. 1 and 2 are disengaged
1A. you are still in 6th and rolling at 40 mph; midshaft is spinning the appropriate speed (approximate midshaft speed is about 1700 rpm, engine speed in 6th)
2. you disengage 6th, disconnecting 2 and 3.
3. you engage 2nd, reconnecting 2 and 3, but with a different ratio (gear).
3a. as you're engaging 2nd, the synchros work to speed up the midshaft to the appropriate speed for 2nd gear. In the G, at a given speed, the midshaft must spin over 200% faster in 2nd than in 6th. (midshaft speed cranks up to 5700 rpm)
4. you let up on the clutch, reconecting 1 and 2.
Ever drive an older car where it's difficult to get into 2nd 3rd or 5th/6th? The owner probably skipped gears a lot. The synchros are worn out, so you have to double clutch to MANUALLY bring the midshaft speed up (or down) to the proper speed to get into gear.
Skipping gears WILL prematurely wear out your synchros, even with revmatching. Remember, revmatching only modifies part 1. Shifting requires work (synchros) between parts 2 and 3. Double clutching will modify the speed of part 2, reducing the work the synchros have to do.
Synchros are tougher for 2nd and 3rd than for 4th, 5th, and 6th. The higher gears have closer ratios, so the synchros don't need to be as reinforced. Skipping high gears WILL cause premature wear.
04-02-2009, 06:33 PM
#25
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This topic continually comes up.
Skipping gears WILL hurt the tranny, even with proper revmatching. Let me explain why.
First the basics. This is your drivetrain:
Engine (flywheel) <-> Clutch <-> midshaft <-> (synchro) Gear <-> Driveshaft <-> Diff <-> Wheel
To simplify for this explanation, We are going to group the drivetrain into 3 parts.
1. Engine (engine, flywheel)
2. Midshaft (Clutch, midshaft)
3. Wheels (synchro, gear, driveshaft, diff, wheels).
There are two major connecting points in the drivetrain that are being used when you are shifting a standard transmission. When you change gears, you are changing the connection between groups 2 and 3, utilizing the synchros. When you engage the clutch, you are connecting or disconnecting groups 1 and 2.
E.g., if you are in neutral, then the wheels are disconnected from the midshaft (and thus the engine) [connection between 2 and 3], even if 1 and two are connected.
If you step on the clutch, then you are disconnecting the engine from the wheels by disconnecting 1 and 2, even if you are in gear.
Now, the reason why you should no skip gears.
The synchros on your tranny are made so that the midshaft and wheel speeds match up (given a certain ratio, depending on the gear) when you are shifting gears with the clutch depressed.
When you are in 3rd gear at 40mph, and you downshift to 2nd, this is a breakdown of what happens.
1. you depress the clutch. 1 and 2 are disengaged
1A. you are still in 3rd and rolling at 40 mph; midshaft is spinning the appropriate speed. (approximate midshaft speed roughly 3800 rpm, engine speed in 3rd.)
2. you disengage 6th, disconnecting 2 and 3.
3. you engage 2nd, reconnecting 2 and 3, but with a different ratio (gear).
3a. as you're engaging 2nd, the synchros work to speed up the midshaft to the appropriate speed for 2nd gear. In most cars, at a given speed, the midshaft must spin 50% faster in 2nd than in 3rd. (midshaft speed cranks up 5700 rpm)
4. you let up on the clutch, reconecting 1 and 2.
Now, lets do it again, but going from 40mph in 6th to 2nd.
1. you depress the clutch. 1 and 2 are disengaged
1A. you are still in 6th and rolling at 40 mph; midshaft is spinning the appropriate speed (approximate midshaft speed is about 1700 rpm, engine speed in 6th)
2. you disengage 6th, disconnecting 2 and 3.
3. you engage 2nd, reconnecting 2 and 3, but with a different ratio (gear).
3a. as you're engaging 2nd, the synchros work to speed up the midshaft to the appropriate speed for 2nd gear. In the G, at a given speed, the midshaft must spin over 200% faster in 2nd than in 6th. (midshaft speed cranks up to 5700 rpm)
4. you let up on the clutch, reconecting 1 and 2.
Ever drive an older car where it's difficult to get into 2nd 3rd or 5th/6th? The owner probably skipped gears a lot. The synchros are worn out, so you have to double clutch to MANUALLY bring the midshaft speed up (or down) to the proper speed to get into gear.
Skipping gears WILL prematurely wear out your synchros, even with revmatching. Remember, revmatching only modifies part 1. Shifting requires work (synchros) between parts 2 and 3. Double clutching will modify the speed of part 2, reducing the work the synchros have to do.
Synchros are tougher for 2nd and 3rd than for 4th, 5th, and 6th. The higher gears have closer ratios, so the synchros don't need to be as reinforced. Skipping high gears WILL cause premature wear.
Skipping gears WILL hurt the tranny, even with proper revmatching. Let me explain why.
First the basics. This is your drivetrain:
Engine (flywheel) <-> Clutch <-> midshaft <-> (synchro) Gear <-> Driveshaft <-> Diff <-> Wheel
To simplify for this explanation, We are going to group the drivetrain into 3 parts.
1. Engine (engine, flywheel)
2. Midshaft (Clutch, midshaft)
3. Wheels (synchro, gear, driveshaft, diff, wheels).
There are two major connecting points in the drivetrain that are being used when you are shifting a standard transmission. When you change gears, you are changing the connection between groups 2 and 3, utilizing the synchros. When you engage the clutch, you are connecting or disconnecting groups 1 and 2.
E.g., if you are in neutral, then the wheels are disconnected from the midshaft (and thus the engine) [connection between 2 and 3], even if 1 and two are connected.
If you step on the clutch, then you are disconnecting the engine from the wheels by disconnecting 1 and 2, even if you are in gear.
Now, the reason why you should no skip gears.
The synchros on your tranny are made so that the midshaft and wheel speeds match up (given a certain ratio, depending on the gear) when you are shifting gears with the clutch depressed.
When you are in 3rd gear at 40mph, and you downshift to 2nd, this is a breakdown of what happens.
1. you depress the clutch. 1 and 2 are disengaged
1A. you are still in 3rd and rolling at 40 mph; midshaft is spinning the appropriate speed. (approximate midshaft speed roughly 3800 rpm, engine speed in 3rd.)
2. you disengage 6th, disconnecting 2 and 3.
3. you engage 2nd, reconnecting 2 and 3, but with a different ratio (gear).
3a. as you're engaging 2nd, the synchros work to speed up the midshaft to the appropriate speed for 2nd gear. In most cars, at a given speed, the midshaft must spin 50% faster in 2nd than in 3rd. (midshaft speed cranks up 5700 rpm)
4. you let up on the clutch, reconecting 1 and 2.
Now, lets do it again, but going from 40mph in 6th to 2nd.
1. you depress the clutch. 1 and 2 are disengaged
1A. you are still in 6th and rolling at 40 mph; midshaft is spinning the appropriate speed (approximate midshaft speed is about 1700 rpm, engine speed in 6th)
2. you disengage 6th, disconnecting 2 and 3.
3. you engage 2nd, reconnecting 2 and 3, but with a different ratio (gear).
3a. as you're engaging 2nd, the synchros work to speed up the midshaft to the appropriate speed for 2nd gear. In the G, at a given speed, the midshaft must spin over 200% faster in 2nd than in 6th. (midshaft speed cranks up to 5700 rpm)
4. you let up on the clutch, reconecting 1 and 2.
Ever drive an older car where it's difficult to get into 2nd 3rd or 5th/6th? The owner probably skipped gears a lot. The synchros are worn out, so you have to double clutch to MANUALLY bring the midshaft speed up (or down) to the proper speed to get into gear.
Skipping gears WILL prematurely wear out your synchros, even with revmatching. Remember, revmatching only modifies part 1. Shifting requires work (synchros) between parts 2 and 3. Double clutching will modify the speed of part 2, reducing the work the synchros have to do.
Synchros are tougher for 2nd and 3rd than for 4th, 5th, and 6th. The higher gears have closer ratios, so the synchros don't need to be as reinforced. Skipping high gears WILL cause premature wear.
04-02-2009, 08:33 PM
#26
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If you're still having trouble with a smooth shift from 1st to 2nd, try shifting earlier and getting into 2nd before you hit 2000rpm. You won't be blowing anyone off the line, but for daily driving it will make you a considerably smoother driver.
And as G37MA stated above, try to focus on matching your two feet. Someone once told me to pretend there's a string and a pulley attached to your two feet. If you press the gas down an inch, you let off the clutch an inch (this is only when you're near the clutch point, not to the floor). If you start easing off the clutch without depressing the accelerator, you're gonna clunk. If you start accelerating faster than you're easing off the clutch, you're gonna rev. Many other brands (Honda/Acura) are more forgiving and you don't have to do this to shift smoothly. Our G's aren't forgiving; your feet have to work in perfect unison for a smooth shift.
And finally, I can't speak for everyone else, but if you asked me if I skip gears, my answer would be "yes." However, I double-clutch and rev-match each time I do it. So while many people claim to skip gears, I'm sure there's a percentage of those people who actually do it correctly.
And as G37MA stated above, try to focus on matching your two feet. Someone once told me to pretend there's a string and a pulley attached to your two feet. If you press the gas down an inch, you let off the clutch an inch (this is only when you're near the clutch point, not to the floor). If you start easing off the clutch without depressing the accelerator, you're gonna clunk. If you start accelerating faster than you're easing off the clutch, you're gonna rev. Many other brands (Honda/Acura) are more forgiving and you don't have to do this to shift smoothly. Our G's aren't forgiving; your feet have to work in perfect unison for a smooth shift.
And finally, I can't speak for everyone else, but if you asked me if I skip gears, my answer would be "yes." However, I double-clutch and rev-match each time I do it. So while many people claim to skip gears, I'm sure there's a percentage of those people who actually do it correctly.
04-03-2009, 03:34 AM
#28
I do not do it as drastic as your examples (2nd to 6th and vice versa). So you are saying, when I downshift from say 6th to 4th, w/ rev match, or get to cruising speed in 4th then (skip 5th) shift into 6th, are bad for the tranny? Please advise. Thanks.
04-03-2009, 06:39 AM
#29
Skipping gears does not mess up the tranny at all if you do it properly, rev-match is very important in this car when downshifting. Skipping gears while upshifting is fine also as long as your doing it to maintain speed. Dont go from 2nd to 6th and floor it obviously. As far as driving it smoothly, yes this car does take some getting use to because you do have to ride the clutch a little do get smooth becasue of how abrubt the grab point is, it's also very high in it's travel which doesnt help. I think that's why I've seen some members burning out their clutch at 14k and 18k miles because the clutch was probably ridden alot. Overall it's a blast to drive manual, just wish it had a little smoother drivetrain.
Does everyone understand this?! If you people saying that skipping gears doesn't do anything then you haven't been driving a manual tranny long enough and you should just stop talking now.....
04-03-2009, 06:42 AM
#30
Skipping gears, with proper rev matching, is fine, but it's true that it would be more "detrimental" to the transmission than shifting sequentially, which is what you should usually be doing for most driving.
Skipping gears will put more wear on the synchros as it now has to account for a larger difference in rotational speed for the gears to match up than before. Of course, it's up to you as to how much of an effect it will actually be on the longevity of your synchros, much like the double clutching technique to "save wear" on your synchros.
Skipping gears will put more wear on the synchros as it now has to account for a larger difference in rotational speed for the gears to match up than before. Of course, it's up to you as to how much of an effect it will actually be on the longevity of your synchros, much like the double clutching technique to "save wear" on your synchros.
edit: make that 4 now with Mike's awesome post of "why skipping is bad"
I don't skip any gears and I've had no problems with rough or "clunky" shifts, but I have been driving manual cars for over 10 years now and have never owned an automatic. Shifting was a little rough first 1-2 weeks of owning my G but that was because I had to get used to driving it. So if you keep on skipping gears and putting additional strain on your engine/tranny, you're basically screwing your synchros and yourself. 086mt, SilverRSXJezus, Mike....you guys get it and high fives for you. I'd buy you beers if we were in the same city
Last edited by BradManUWF; 04-03-2009 at 06:58 AM.