2008 G in new motor trend
02-26-2007, 05:44 PM
#46
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a factory turbo car with a turbo built engine will be easier to mod and increase performance then a ...
NA engine that some feel is maxed out. if you search the old posts you hear something along those lines and getting 50hp+ from a stock turbo is alot easier and cheaper then 50hp from a stock NA engine.
stock for stock... true a NA car is a safer engine... with similar performance
but tossing in a chip for a few hundred could gain you 100hp easy.
ppp
NA engine that some feel is maxed out. if you search the old posts you hear something along those lines and getting 50hp+ from a stock turbo is alot easier and cheaper then 50hp from a stock NA engine.
stock for stock... true a NA car is a safer engine... with similar performance
but tossing in a chip for a few hundred could gain you 100hp easy.
ppp
02-27-2007, 11:58 AM
#47
The highest attainment of successful marketing is when the company is able to induce a state of cognitive dissonance (especially post-purchase) in the minds of its buyers, so that they themselves rationalize and explain away any potential shortcomings in the product. Instead of the company itself justifying deficiencies in its product, it knows it has truly won the hearts and minds of buyers when they do it themselves.
BMW fans (and salespeople?) seem to be particularly rabid about defending their preferences, and sometimes seem to take personally any comments short of fanatical adulation of and unquestioning devotion to their revered blue-and-white propeller badge (you should hear them howl on the BMW forums if anyone says anything less then reverential about BMW, it’s worse than admitting to being a child killer). We should all lighten up a little. We’re all just kibbutzing about cars, piles of metal. It’s not like we’re considering anything serious and important like matters of life and death.
Like I said before, there is no “right” and “wrong” with cars. Cars are supposed to be fun. That’s what it’s all about, having fun with wheels. Whatever anyone likes, is great. It would be such a boring world if everyone drive the same car and had the same views.
But, it was interesting to read some of the comments to my post, because they sound amazingly like things BMW dealers have said to me. Almost like the comments came out of a sales training manual….
I always think about the perspective of the author. When someone says something, do they have anything to gain from it? Do they have a bias, or an ulterior motive? One of the classic sales training approaches is to answer a different question from the one that was asked. Give a non-sequitur response, and most of the time the buyer will buy it. I have absolutely no ax to grind, I don’t work for any of the car companies and have nothing to gain from anyone’s car preferences. I would just like to clarify any impressions of misleading comments (my observations were meant to be irreverent and humorous, and possibly suggest some alternative views, but not to be misleading).
No dipstick on the BMW 335: I commented that the lack of a dipstick on the 335 means you cannot check the quality of the oil, not the quantity. Of course an electronic measurement can tell you how much oil is in the crankcase (assuming the sensors are working properly). But, I’m old school. I like to be able to pull a dipstick and look at and feel the oil. You can’t tell if the oil is dirty, or contaminated with water, or gas, or coolant, with an electronic readout. You can learn so much about what is happening in the engine from the dipstick, which adds maybe $5 to the cost of the engine (or makes $5 more profit for the company if it’s eliminated…).
“The ultimate driving machine”: I commented that the 335 does not have a limited slip differential. I made no references to the M (except that I personally think they are great cars, for whatever my thoughts are worth). BMW applies the “ultimate driving machine” moniker to all of their cars, not just the M. I think it’s ironic that the 335, one of BMW’s “ultimate driving machines”, does not have a LSD, and must make do with an open differential.
The impacts of not having a LSD, and having to trudge through life with an open differential, are two fold. First, in “spirited” driving situations, whether taking a hard sweeping turn, or particularly in switchback/autocross situations where the car is frequently and rapidly changing directions, the first wheel to become unloaded – and thus loose traction – is the inside rear. With an open differential, this would result in that inside rear wheel loosing traction and slipping, while the outside rear could loose torque applied to it. The BMW “traction control system” will apply the brake to the slipping inside rear wheel, but it’s not the same thing as mechanically maintaining torque and delivering traction to the loaded outside rear wheel. This is why on the track cars with a LSD will be faster than the same car with an open differential.
Second, consider a slippery situation where one rear wheel is on ice, and the other on dry pavement. With an open differential, the wheel on the ice will spin, and the one on dry pavement will just sit there (those of us in the northeast probably saw this demonstrated in real life many times on the roads in the past couple of weeks… I helped push a few cars off the ice and thought again about this as the slipping wheel would spray slush on me). Again, a “traction control” system will apply the brakes to the spinning wheel on ice, but it’s not the same thing as mechanically sending power to the wheel with grip.
The explanation that BMW didn’t put a LSD on the 335 because they didn’t want to **** off M owners seems a little lame. Why penalize buyers of the “lesser” car so that buyers of the “upmarket” model feel superior? Many other manufacturers (like Honda and Infiniti) manage to put LSD’s on a broad range of their products. They distinguish, and justify the higher prices of their upper end models, by making them better, not by making the lower end models worse.
Oil change and other costs: I made no comments on whether one can change the oil on a 335 themselves, I reported what two dealers in my area told me they would charge for an oil change ($130 and $200, and $48 for wiper blade refills). Most car companies don’t use the marketing approach of selling you the car and then telling you to change the oil yourself if you don’t want to get fleeced. I found those prices amusing (and gouging!), especially compared to the $34.95 I paid in my same area for oil changes at the Infiniti dealer for my G35.
Oil change intervals: when a company wants more than $50 large for a car and tells its buyers that 15,000 mile oil change intervals are fine, I think the responsibility is on the company to demonstrate to the customer that this is OK, that their recommendation is good. I don’t think it should be up to the customer to get data and prove there is something wrong with the manufacturer’s plan. If I’m going to spend more than $50k on a car, I don’t want to have to go out and test and verify the manufacturer’s claims on oil change intervals if they significantly differ from what most other companies are recommending and the generally accepted practices of car maintenance.
I don’t have a fleet of cars in which I have done statistical analysis of internal engine wear correlated with oil change intervals. The only “data” I can refer to are a couple of studies published in Scientific American and Popular Science about 20-25 years ago (yes, I’m old enough to have been driving back then), in which they tested various oils to see if 3000 mile oil change intervals (long recommended by many) were really necessary. Even back then they concluded that most oils last much longer than 3000 miles, but did find that in high-stress situations (high temperatures, such as those encountered in a turbocharged engine, where the turbos actually get red hot in operation) could result in a significant deterioration in the shear properties of the oil after 5000-7000 miles.
(My only other “data” was seeing the inside of the engine of my mother-in-laws car after it grenaded at 19,000 miles – because it still had its original oil, she never changed it, and it had the expected results. It didn’t run out of oil, it didn’t burn much, but there were very few lubricating properties left in the vile black gunk dug out of the oil pan).
Most importantly, what I “like” and “don’t like” doesn’t matter at all. My thoughts and opinions are completely irrelevant. What anyone else likes or doesn’t like isn’t important. The only thing that matters is what everyone likes for themselves. We are not teenagers hanging around a schoolyard, needing the approval of our buddies to tell us they think our car is “cool”, and feeling hurt if someone doesn’t like our wheels. Cars are supposed to be fun, and that’s why we’re all here, to share in the fun of entertaining cars. Whatever anyone likes is fine, no one needs approval from anyone else. Unless someone works for BMW and is afraid that my observations might cost them a sale, my – and anyone’s – opinions are irrelevant. So, if someone gets a kick out of the “BMW lifestyle”, if it works for them, go for it, and have fun. I’m just a guy who likes cars, here to shoot the breeze with other fellow gearheads and have some fun. I mean no disrespect to anyone’s likes and preferences – different strokes for different folks, vive la difference and all that. I don’t stand to gain anything from whatever anyone drives. It’s a free country, and the beauty of it is that everyone gets to do whatever they like (and their bank accounts can stand).
With that, let’s all go drive and have fun, and I’ll close out my observations before I ruffle anyone else’s feathers.
BMW fans (and salespeople?) seem to be particularly rabid about defending their preferences, and sometimes seem to take personally any comments short of fanatical adulation of and unquestioning devotion to their revered blue-and-white propeller badge (you should hear them howl on the BMW forums if anyone says anything less then reverential about BMW, it’s worse than admitting to being a child killer). We should all lighten up a little. We’re all just kibbutzing about cars, piles of metal. It’s not like we’re considering anything serious and important like matters of life and death.
Like I said before, there is no “right” and “wrong” with cars. Cars are supposed to be fun. That’s what it’s all about, having fun with wheels. Whatever anyone likes, is great. It would be such a boring world if everyone drive the same car and had the same views.
But, it was interesting to read some of the comments to my post, because they sound amazingly like things BMW dealers have said to me. Almost like the comments came out of a sales training manual….
I always think about the perspective of the author. When someone says something, do they have anything to gain from it? Do they have a bias, or an ulterior motive? One of the classic sales training approaches is to answer a different question from the one that was asked. Give a non-sequitur response, and most of the time the buyer will buy it. I have absolutely no ax to grind, I don’t work for any of the car companies and have nothing to gain from anyone’s car preferences. I would just like to clarify any impressions of misleading comments (my observations were meant to be irreverent and humorous, and possibly suggest some alternative views, but not to be misleading).
No dipstick on the BMW 335: I commented that the lack of a dipstick on the 335 means you cannot check the quality of the oil, not the quantity. Of course an electronic measurement can tell you how much oil is in the crankcase (assuming the sensors are working properly). But, I’m old school. I like to be able to pull a dipstick and look at and feel the oil. You can’t tell if the oil is dirty, or contaminated with water, or gas, or coolant, with an electronic readout. You can learn so much about what is happening in the engine from the dipstick, which adds maybe $5 to the cost of the engine (or makes $5 more profit for the company if it’s eliminated…).
“The ultimate driving machine”: I commented that the 335 does not have a limited slip differential. I made no references to the M (except that I personally think they are great cars, for whatever my thoughts are worth). BMW applies the “ultimate driving machine” moniker to all of their cars, not just the M. I think it’s ironic that the 335, one of BMW’s “ultimate driving machines”, does not have a LSD, and must make do with an open differential.
The impacts of not having a LSD, and having to trudge through life with an open differential, are two fold. First, in “spirited” driving situations, whether taking a hard sweeping turn, or particularly in switchback/autocross situations where the car is frequently and rapidly changing directions, the first wheel to become unloaded – and thus loose traction – is the inside rear. With an open differential, this would result in that inside rear wheel loosing traction and slipping, while the outside rear could loose torque applied to it. The BMW “traction control system” will apply the brake to the slipping inside rear wheel, but it’s not the same thing as mechanically maintaining torque and delivering traction to the loaded outside rear wheel. This is why on the track cars with a LSD will be faster than the same car with an open differential.
Second, consider a slippery situation where one rear wheel is on ice, and the other on dry pavement. With an open differential, the wheel on the ice will spin, and the one on dry pavement will just sit there (those of us in the northeast probably saw this demonstrated in real life many times on the roads in the past couple of weeks… I helped push a few cars off the ice and thought again about this as the slipping wheel would spray slush on me). Again, a “traction control” system will apply the brakes to the spinning wheel on ice, but it’s not the same thing as mechanically sending power to the wheel with grip.
The explanation that BMW didn’t put a LSD on the 335 because they didn’t want to **** off M owners seems a little lame. Why penalize buyers of the “lesser” car so that buyers of the “upmarket” model feel superior? Many other manufacturers (like Honda and Infiniti) manage to put LSD’s on a broad range of their products. They distinguish, and justify the higher prices of their upper end models, by making them better, not by making the lower end models worse.
Oil change and other costs: I made no comments on whether one can change the oil on a 335 themselves, I reported what two dealers in my area told me they would charge for an oil change ($130 and $200, and $48 for wiper blade refills). Most car companies don’t use the marketing approach of selling you the car and then telling you to change the oil yourself if you don’t want to get fleeced. I found those prices amusing (and gouging!), especially compared to the $34.95 I paid in my same area for oil changes at the Infiniti dealer for my G35.
Oil change intervals: when a company wants more than $50 large for a car and tells its buyers that 15,000 mile oil change intervals are fine, I think the responsibility is on the company to demonstrate to the customer that this is OK, that their recommendation is good. I don’t think it should be up to the customer to get data and prove there is something wrong with the manufacturer’s plan. If I’m going to spend more than $50k on a car, I don’t want to have to go out and test and verify the manufacturer’s claims on oil change intervals if they significantly differ from what most other companies are recommending and the generally accepted practices of car maintenance.
I don’t have a fleet of cars in which I have done statistical analysis of internal engine wear correlated with oil change intervals. The only “data” I can refer to are a couple of studies published in Scientific American and Popular Science about 20-25 years ago (yes, I’m old enough to have been driving back then), in which they tested various oils to see if 3000 mile oil change intervals (long recommended by many) were really necessary. Even back then they concluded that most oils last much longer than 3000 miles, but did find that in high-stress situations (high temperatures, such as those encountered in a turbocharged engine, where the turbos actually get red hot in operation) could result in a significant deterioration in the shear properties of the oil after 5000-7000 miles.
(My only other “data” was seeing the inside of the engine of my mother-in-laws car after it grenaded at 19,000 miles – because it still had its original oil, she never changed it, and it had the expected results. It didn’t run out of oil, it didn’t burn much, but there were very few lubricating properties left in the vile black gunk dug out of the oil pan).
Most importantly, what I “like” and “don’t like” doesn’t matter at all. My thoughts and opinions are completely irrelevant. What anyone else likes or doesn’t like isn’t important. The only thing that matters is what everyone likes for themselves. We are not teenagers hanging around a schoolyard, needing the approval of our buddies to tell us they think our car is “cool”, and feeling hurt if someone doesn’t like our wheels. Cars are supposed to be fun, and that’s why we’re all here, to share in the fun of entertaining cars. Whatever anyone likes is fine, no one needs approval from anyone else. Unless someone works for BMW and is afraid that my observations might cost them a sale, my – and anyone’s – opinions are irrelevant. So, if someone gets a kick out of the “BMW lifestyle”, if it works for them, go for it, and have fun. I’m just a guy who likes cars, here to shoot the breeze with other fellow gearheads and have some fun. I mean no disrespect to anyone’s likes and preferences – different strokes for different folks, vive la difference and all that. I don’t stand to gain anything from whatever anyone drives. It’s a free country, and the beauty of it is that everyone gets to do whatever they like (and their bank accounts can stand).
With that, let’s all go drive and have fun, and I’ll close out my observations before I ruffle anyone else’s feathers.
02-27-2007, 12:29 PM
#48
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Nick - no feathers ruffled, thanks for your thoughts. In the future I'd suggest giving other forum enthusiasts the benefit of the doubt before telling them they've been fooled by marketing or sound like salespeople. The same thing you said about BMW owners could easily be said about any group of passionate car owners including Infiniti owners, but since we're all here one has to at least consider that we're smart enough to see past the marketing and buy a car based on its merits.
It's common courtesy, and you would sound a whole lot less condescending.
It's common courtesy, and you would sound a whole lot less condescending.
02-27-2007, 12:56 PM
#49
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It's all good guys !
I value everybody's comments and also take them with a grain of salt (as we all should).
based upon
research
personal preference
forums
pricing
gadgets
luxury
relibility
gas mileage
performance... I've made my mind up regarding what i'm NOT getting.
but everybody values these items differently and consequently it will affect (or effect) their ultimate decision.
ppp
I value everybody's comments and also take them with a grain of salt (as we all should).
based upon
research
personal preference
forums
pricing
gadgets
luxury
relibility
gas mileage
performance... I've made my mind up regarding what i'm NOT getting.
but everybody values these items differently and consequently it will affect (or effect) their ultimate decision.
ppp
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