2008 G in new motor trend
02-24-2007, 03:38 AM
#31
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Thanks for the informative post, Nick! you are one smarty pant!
But to be fair, I think a lot of car companies do this, not just BMW. It i just that BMW does it better than other brands.
But to be fair, I think a lot of car companies do this, not just BMW. It i just that BMW does it better than other brands.
02-24-2007, 07:22 PM
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NIck, you really put it all out their for us. Your post had to be the best post of the year or maybe even ever. and as much as i want to disagree with your oppinions because i love bmw, but its all true. Kind of open my eyes
02-25-2007, 08:02 AM
#34
jackygor, you're absolutely right. Many car companies are now pursuing the same marketing strategy as BMW, in terms of maximizing profits and cutting any corner they can (because they know most buyers will still pony up). Porsche and Mercedes-Benz are quickly learning from BMW, and following in their footsteps.
It's simple business - how do you maximize your profits? If you can cut 20% of the cost out of a product, and 95% of buyers will still buy it at the same price, then the company has made more money. Marketing makes all the difference, because most consumers make their buying decisions based on perception, and not reality.
fabulusst7, I wish it wasn't true as well. Other companies do the same thing - including Porsche. The closer I look at my Boxster ('06 S), the more disappointed I am, because Porsche has also applied similar cut-cost-maximize-profit measures to it.
But BMW really gets the highest grade in the brave new world of Maximum Marketing. They have done it better than anyone else. They spent years drilling their own marketing slogan of "the ultimate driving machine" into everyone's head - this notion came from them, not anyone else. And now, I think it's ironic and funny as he!! that the "ultimate driving machine" has an open differential. But again, 95% of buyers don't know the difference or care, so it's in the company's interest to cut it out, save the money, and charge the same price.
It's simple business - how do you maximize your profits? If you can cut 20% of the cost out of a product, and 95% of buyers will still buy it at the same price, then the company has made more money. Marketing makes all the difference, because most consumers make their buying decisions based on perception, and not reality.
fabulusst7, I wish it wasn't true as well. Other companies do the same thing - including Porsche. The closer I look at my Boxster ('06 S), the more disappointed I am, because Porsche has also applied similar cut-cost-maximize-profit measures to it.
But BMW really gets the highest grade in the brave new world of Maximum Marketing. They have done it better than anyone else. They spent years drilling their own marketing slogan of "the ultimate driving machine" into everyone's head - this notion came from them, not anyone else. And now, I think it's ironic and funny as he!! that the "ultimate driving machine" has an open differential. But again, 95% of buyers don't know the difference or care, so it's in the company's interest to cut it out, save the money, and charge the same price.
02-25-2007, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Nick-L
...........
And now, I think it's ironic and funny as he!! that the "ultimate driving machine" has an open differential. But again, 95% of buyers don't know the difference or care, so it's in the company's interest to cut it out, save the money, and charge the same price.
And now, I think it's ironic and funny as he!! that the "ultimate driving machine" has an open differential. But again, 95% of buyers don't know the difference or care, so it's in the company's interest to cut it out, save the money, and charge the same price.
Your LSD statements are erroneous and missleading.
LSD has always been reserved for the M series.
They are upholding that tradition *not* cutting corners.
They are supporting their M owners, & the reasons why we buy the M.
02-25-2007, 11:47 AM
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Nick, there are a number of errors in your post. You are of course entitled to your opinion about the 335i and BMW, however your description of BMW maintenance is incorrect.
Now, I understand this is a G35 forum but I'd appreciate if you didn't make unfair inferences like the fact that an oil change on a 335i can not be done without proprietary tools (it can), and can not cost less than $130-$200, or that the pads can't be bought online and replaced yourself (they can, and can). The windshield wipers, like on the G35, are proprietary; but they can be had for under $20.
Let's look at oil changes, a pretty popular topic here. First, you can do an oil change on a 335i yourself; there are no special tools required. The only difference (literally) from a G35 is that you use an electronic guide to tell how much oil to put in, not a dipstick. If you choose to have an oil change done you can find costs well under $100, just like you can for the G (even though some dealers, like BMW, will charge obscene amounts). The oil used in the 3-series is synthetic Castrol, it costs the same as the oil used in a G35.
While I agree an oil change should be done more often than 15,000 miles; no one... *no one* has proven that there is abnormal wear on an engine that received "recommended BMW maintenance", and the fact remains that even if you do "interim" oil changes, you will still pay less for maintenance than on an Infiniti.
Regarding brakes; you can buy brakes online or locally just like for the G, and you can replace them yourself. OEM BMW pads actually cost less than Infiniti pads, and generally require changing in the same intervals (unless you have a Brembo G, in which case you need to change them more often). Another important note: In the US, pad *and* rotor replacements are *FREE* for the first 4 years/50k miles.
You're also generalizing owners. 43% of 335i owners so far have purchased. The 3-series reliability has been well above industry average for years (the 7-series, like the Infiniti QX, drags the brand data down).
You don't like the lack of LSD; you're not alone. You don't like BMW owners; I am sure you're not alone (
), but unless you just don't know any better (which I find unlikely), you're using selective or exaggerated examples re: maintenance which paint BMW in an unfair light. I could very easily use similar examples about Infiniti, but won't because I know we're all enthusiasts and will probably not get suckered into $200 oil changes.
Now, I understand this is a G35 forum but I'd appreciate if you didn't make unfair inferences like the fact that an oil change on a 335i can not be done without proprietary tools (it can), and can not cost less than $130-$200, or that the pads can't be bought online and replaced yourself (they can, and can). The windshield wipers, like on the G35, are proprietary; but they can be had for under $20.
Let's look at oil changes, a pretty popular topic here. First, you can do an oil change on a 335i yourself; there are no special tools required. The only difference (literally) from a G35 is that you use an electronic guide to tell how much oil to put in, not a dipstick. If you choose to have an oil change done you can find costs well under $100, just like you can for the G (even though some dealers, like BMW, will charge obscene amounts). The oil used in the 3-series is synthetic Castrol, it costs the same as the oil used in a G35.
While I agree an oil change should be done more often than 15,000 miles; no one... *no one* has proven that there is abnormal wear on an engine that received "recommended BMW maintenance", and the fact remains that even if you do "interim" oil changes, you will still pay less for maintenance than on an Infiniti.
Regarding brakes; you can buy brakes online or locally just like for the G, and you can replace them yourself. OEM BMW pads actually cost less than Infiniti pads, and generally require changing in the same intervals (unless you have a Brembo G, in which case you need to change them more often). Another important note: In the US, pad *and* rotor replacements are *FREE* for the first 4 years/50k miles.
You're also generalizing owners. 43% of 335i owners so far have purchased. The 3-series reliability has been well above industry average for years (the 7-series, like the Infiniti QX, drags the brand data down).
You don't like the lack of LSD; you're not alone. You don't like BMW owners; I am sure you're not alone (
), but unless you just don't know any better (which I find unlikely), you're using selective or exaggerated examples re: maintenance which paint BMW in an unfair light. I could very easily use similar examples about Infiniti, but won't because I know we're all enthusiasts and will probably not get suckered into $200 oil changes.
Last edited by picus112; 02-25-2007 at 06:51 PM.
02-25-2007, 12:48 PM
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there are some great comments in this post and i'm glad it's been very civil.
i agree with some respect to the new bimmers coming out especially the crappy interiors. i have an e46 and my fiance has a g35c. i love both cars and i'm doing my own maintenance on both cars (i do my oil change every 7.5K for my e46 n let the dealer do the 15K) and both are pretty easy to do.
i have a question about the lsd comments. i'm still unsure of what it's actually good for. can someone enlighten me? the reason why i ask is that i've taken my car and my fiance's car in autoX a couple of times and the handling of both cars are very different. i can honestly say that my e46 handled much better and has a better driving response that the g. the power of the g is more raw tho, but my times are at least 1-2 sec. faster on the track albeit, i don't drive the g as often so perhaps i don't know the car as well. both cars are great, but i do have to give it to bmw in a sense that their cars handles more precise and has such a more of a driver's feel.
i will reserve my comment on the new 08 g's since i haven't driven it yet. the 335i are awesome cars tho. the power/torque is tremendous down low especially for a boosted car and the handling (although it's 200lbs or so heavier than my e46) is even better than my e46.
i agree with some respect to the new bimmers coming out especially the crappy interiors. i have an e46 and my fiance has a g35c. i love both cars and i'm doing my own maintenance on both cars (i do my oil change every 7.5K for my e46 n let the dealer do the 15K) and both are pretty easy to do.
i have a question about the lsd comments. i'm still unsure of what it's actually good for. can someone enlighten me? the reason why i ask is that i've taken my car and my fiance's car in autoX a couple of times and the handling of both cars are very different. i can honestly say that my e46 handled much better and has a better driving response that the g. the power of the g is more raw tho, but my times are at least 1-2 sec. faster on the track albeit, i don't drive the g as often so perhaps i don't know the car as well. both cars are great, but i do have to give it to bmw in a sense that their cars handles more precise and has such a more of a driver's feel.
i will reserve my comment on the new 08 g's since i haven't driven it yet. the 335i are awesome cars tho. the power/torque is tremendous down low especially for a boosted car and the handling (although it's 200lbs or so heavier than my e46) is even better than my e46.
02-25-2007, 01:09 PM
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LSD allows the output shafts to rotate at different velocities (so the wheels can spin at different speeds) but will limit the difference between the two wheels. That means that if you have a situation where one wheel has no traction the differential will stop that wheel from spinning much faster than the wheel with traction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_slip_differential <--good read.
I do wish BMW had added it to the 335i, but know why they didn't. The 335i is roughly the same speed around a track as an M3, and adding LSD probably would have stepped on M owners toes too much. BMW tends to do a lot of thinking within their own brand so they don't create cars that compete with eachother. Clearly from the 335i's track times, it does not *need* an LSD, but it would benefit from one.
Obviously one of the upsides to the G35 is that VLSD is available. That goes right in hand with the G's outstanding value. I am sure the '08 coupe will continue Infiniti's new tradition of offering an awesome value for the money.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_slip_differential <--good read.
I do wish BMW had added it to the 335i, but know why they didn't. The 335i is roughly the same speed around a track as an M3, and adding LSD probably would have stepped on M owners toes too much. BMW tends to do a lot of thinking within their own brand so they don't create cars that compete with eachother. Clearly from the 335i's track times, it does not *need* an LSD, but it would benefit from one.
Obviously one of the upsides to the G35 is that VLSD is available. That goes right in hand with the G's outstanding value. I am sure the '08 coupe will continue Infiniti's new tradition of offering an awesome value for the money.
Originally Posted by mach330i
there are some great comments in this post and i'm glad it's been very civil.
i agree with some respect to the new bimmers coming out especially the crappy interiors. i have an e46 and my fiance has a g35c. i love both cars and i'm doing my own maintenance on both cars (i do my oil change every 7.5K for my e46 n let the dealer do the 15K) and both are pretty easy to do.
i have a question about the lsd comments. i'm still unsure of what it's actually good for. can someone enlighten me? the reason why i ask is that i've taken my car and my fiance's car in autoX a couple of times and the handling of both cars are very different. i can honestly say that my e46 handled much better and has a better driving response that the g. the power of the g is more raw tho, but my times are at least 1-2 sec. faster on the track albeit, i don't drive the g as often so perhaps i don't know the car as well. both cars are great, but i do have to give it to bmw in a sense that their cars handles more precise and has such a more of a driver's feel.
i will reserve my comment on the new 08 g's since i haven't driven it yet. the 335i are awesome cars tho. the power/torque is tremendous down low especially for a boosted car and the handling (although it's 200lbs or so heavier than my e46) is even better than my e46.
i agree with some respect to the new bimmers coming out especially the crappy interiors. i have an e46 and my fiance has a g35c. i love both cars and i'm doing my own maintenance on both cars (i do my oil change every 7.5K for my e46 n let the dealer do the 15K) and both are pretty easy to do.
i have a question about the lsd comments. i'm still unsure of what it's actually good for. can someone enlighten me? the reason why i ask is that i've taken my car and my fiance's car in autoX a couple of times and the handling of both cars are very different. i can honestly say that my e46 handled much better and has a better driving response that the g. the power of the g is more raw tho, but my times are at least 1-2 sec. faster on the track albeit, i don't drive the g as often so perhaps i don't know the car as well. both cars are great, but i do have to give it to bmw in a sense that their cars handles more precise and has such a more of a driver's feel.
i will reserve my comment on the new 08 g's since i haven't driven it yet. the 335i are awesome cars tho. the power/torque is tremendous down low especially for a boosted car and the handling (although it's 200lbs or so heavier than my e46) is even better than my e46.
Last edited by picus112; 02-25-2007 at 01:12 PM.
02-25-2007, 02:20 PM
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LSD allows the output shafts to rotate at different velocities (so the wheels can spin at different speeds) but will limit the difference between the two wheels. That means that if you have a situation where one wheel has no traction the differential will stop that wheel from spinning much faster than the wheel with traction.
For that reason LSD is a very useful feature on cars that you intend to track. There's no way that cars without LSD will take corners as fast as those with LSD, everything else being equal.
For that reason LSD is a very useful feature on cars that you intend to track. There's no way that cars without LSD will take corners as fast as those with LSD, everything else being equal.
02-25-2007, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Nick-L
Other companies do the same thing - including Porsche. The closer I look at my Boxster ('06 S), the more disappointed I am, because Porsche has also applied similar cut-cost-maximize-profit measures to it.
.
.
02-26-2007, 12:12 PM
#41
wow 306 hp... where is all the speed everyones talking about...???? 2 of my friends have an is350 wit short ram fujita intake and and hks exhuast and my friend wit the 335i raced and the lexus but rapped him.. now if 306 is true i have no cluee whatt i am going to choose all depends on price which i herd in future models starting 38.. which is rediculous im lookin to spend 38 on about 320-330 hp 08 coupe..
02-26-2007, 12:17 PM
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NO NUMBERS ARE RELEASED YET...
its all rumors & speculation.
every year infiniti has released a G35 4dr and coupe, the coupe had more power. 2007 is a different animal the 4dr is considered 2nd gen and the coupe is still 1st gen.
figure on the 220-230 range anymore then that I'd be pleasantly surprised !
ppp
its all rumors & speculation.
every year infiniti has released a G35 4dr and coupe, the coupe had more power. 2007 is a different animal the 4dr is considered 2nd gen and the coupe is still 1st gen.
figure on the 220-230 range anymore then that I'd be pleasantly surprised !
ppp
02-26-2007, 01:17 PM
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When company releases the vehicle and not sure on how it's going to sell. Then they do what Nissan does to GTR. They show it off all over the place to raise ppls interest in it and hopefully that will make everyone want to buy one.
But when company is completely confident in their product, then there is no reason for them to let everyone sniff their fresh baked pie and feed it to the costumers three months later when it gets cold. G is the best selling model Infiniti has on the market. They are fully aware of costumers demand, they know what we want. And for the last 4 years they have delivered. Infiniti will not abandon their G line and release some crappy Coupe. It might not be what some of you expecting, but it will deff shake things up.
Infiniti have managed to crank out 306hp out of simple V6. BMW has that in 6 cylinder engine aaaaaaand a turbo. What would happen if Infiniti puts turbo on a G? They have plenty experience with GTR might as well use it. There is not point for them to release same hp engine again, and I don't think that third intake is an option they are thinking of.
Keep your seat belts on guys, the end of the tuner is near.
But when company is completely confident in their product, then there is no reason for them to let everyone sniff their fresh baked pie and feed it to the costumers three months later when it gets cold. G is the best selling model Infiniti has on the market. They are fully aware of costumers demand, they know what we want. And for the last 4 years they have delivered. Infiniti will not abandon their G line and release some crappy Coupe. It might not be what some of you expecting, but it will deff shake things up.
Infiniti have managed to crank out 306hp out of simple V6. BMW has that in 6 cylinder engine aaaaaaand a turbo. What would happen if Infiniti puts turbo on a G? They have plenty experience with GTR might as well use it. There is not point for them to release same hp engine again, and I don't think that third intake is an option they are thinking of.
Keep your seat belts on guys, the end of the tuner is near.
02-26-2007, 01:41 PM
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Nick - I agree with pretty much all you're saying... even if there are some over simplifications in there... for the sake of brevity.
And yes, there are ways to perform your own maintenance on a BMW... even though they are making it harder and harder... it's actually the law that warranty/maintenance work and such can be able to be performed by anybody... so a consumer is not tied to the manufacturer/dealer for those services.
As I was reading your post, I started to draw similarities to Porsche's tactics of recent... then you hit on that in a later post. Yep, they are following BMW's footsteps... and are the most profitable car company out there. Chances are some of those same feelings you have about your Boxster are the same causing me to balk at the thought of purchasing a Cayman S right now.
This is a common thread in the business world in general these days... shifting profit centers from sales-based to service-based. It's what has kept IBM afloat all these years... not making money on the sales of systems, but their services and consulting arms... same theory.
So you have these extremely well-marketed companies like BMW and Porsche... and they are maximizing profits while creating somewhat under-performaing cars... so that you "upgrade" to the next higher model if you want those gadgets. Any sports-oriented car should have an LSD from the factory... I'm glad Infiniti knows this.
And yes, we all have the option of voting with our wallets and not giving in to the marketing hype...
As a side note, I'm closely eyeing that new 135ti or whatever they call it... lots of potential, and true to the original 2002 mantra... give it to me in a 2 or 4 door hatch, and we've got a winner.
And yes, there are ways to perform your own maintenance on a BMW... even though they are making it harder and harder... it's actually the law that warranty/maintenance work and such can be able to be performed by anybody... so a consumer is not tied to the manufacturer/dealer for those services.
As I was reading your post, I started to draw similarities to Porsche's tactics of recent... then you hit on that in a later post. Yep, they are following BMW's footsteps... and are the most profitable car company out there. Chances are some of those same feelings you have about your Boxster are the same causing me to balk at the thought of purchasing a Cayman S right now.
This is a common thread in the business world in general these days... shifting profit centers from sales-based to service-based. It's what has kept IBM afloat all these years... not making money on the sales of systems, but their services and consulting arms... same theory.
So you have these extremely well-marketed companies like BMW and Porsche... and they are maximizing profits while creating somewhat under-performaing cars... so that you "upgrade" to the next higher model if you want those gadgets. Any sports-oriented car should have an LSD from the factory... I'm glad Infiniti knows this.
And yes, we all have the option of voting with our wallets and not giving in to the marketing hype...
As a side note, I'm closely eyeing that new 135ti or whatever they call it... lots of potential, and true to the original 2002 mantra... give it to me in a 2 or 4 door hatch, and we've got a winner.
02-26-2007, 02:02 PM
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Two observations/questions.
First, why is 300hp from a naturally aspirated 6 cylinder special? The VQ is great engine and yes, 306hp from it is very good. I get the impression, though, that some people thing forced induction is some sort of cop out.
Second, re: BMW and Porsche; which cars specifically do you feel underperform? The 328's, 525's, etc? Or are you talking about the entire line? I only ask because the 335i seems to be the BMW people are specifically talking about in this thread, and I'm not sure I see how it would be considered an under-performing car?
First, why is 300hp from a naturally aspirated 6 cylinder special? The VQ is great engine and yes, 306hp from it is very good. I get the impression, though, that some people thing forced induction is some sort of cop out.
Second, re: BMW and Porsche; which cars specifically do you feel underperform? The 328's, 525's, etc? Or are you talking about the entire line? I only ask because the 335i seems to be the BMW people are specifically talking about in this thread, and I'm not sure I see how it would be considered an under-performing car?