Anyone know the flow rates and / or psi coming out of the cooler lines to the radiator from the auto trans?

 

Unsure. I do know however that I have basic oil hoses that hold 150psi max and they're fine.
From some of the research i've done cooler lines usually see 0-120psi where as line pressure would be in the 150-300psi.

I take it you're trying to convert to braided or something along these lines( no pun intended)
I tried to entertain this idea but then I realized that the metal lines from the trans to the end by the radiator are the thinnest and strongest along with the most space saving option you'll have.
Some orb -6 an fittings at the end will get you where you want.

 

From my research and understanding internal line pressure ranges from about 70-150 depending on temp, rpm, and transmission. However external lines going to/from coolers are typically in the 5-30psi range and 0.5-2gpm depending on the same temp/rpm/transmission.

Several service manuals for other transmissions (not sure on ours?) specify when leak checking the external cooler to never exceed 50psi. Also Pulling the line at idle doesn’t really flow too much or flow much pressure either but with rpm that could change.

I believe most auto transmission with external coolers typically utilize some pressure release valve to regulate this pressure, and not let it exceed say 30psi.

I have an AT cooler, still using factory cooler in radiator, and going to add another coolant to atf heat exchanger, a lot of cars especially newer utilize a coolant to atf heat exchanger to warm the trans up quicker, the trans takes forever to warm up, oil hitting 170 when atf still 110. with a heat exchanger it should be about 170/140 which is a lot better temp in the trans to start doing pulls.

my concern is with basically stacking 3 coolers my pressure will drop too low and not circulate very efficiently so I’m debating adding an external pump, 2 options I’m looking at are 1gpm/22psi and 1.5gpm/29psi. I don’t want to add too much pressure or flow but also don’t want to have it not have enough pressure or flow. But I only know general typically flow/psi of various transmission but nothing on this specific one and don’t feel like guessing and hoping.

 

This was my worry as well at first. I've switched to an external thermo cooler from a Frontier. Since it has a thermostat I dont see any issues in warm ups. Once it reaches 150f it tends to hang between that and 180F.
I did notice that the cooler at my highest abuse can't keep up but definitely does better than the OEM setup (seeing 200fs under the same conditions)

I suggest you look into this:
Weld two 1/2 NPT fittings to the metal lines and connect the thermostat to the lines then run two lines from the Tstat to a decent size cooler.
The thermostat will be the fastest non fluid warmer available blocking 90% of the flow until it reaches 180F where it will then try to regulate the temps on it's own.
What's beautiful about it is that you should not have any warming up issues and any over heating issues will be the cooler's fault.
This way you can run a decent size horizontal cooler instead of multiples.

You're still left with the question of returning flow pressure when the thermostat is closed. Based off on the numbers you provided and Tstat specs
30psi max on the cooler lines will will be reduced to 10% while it warms which if the max is correct this means the return would go back at 3psi until it warms up.

Where are you located? I usually see my temps get to where I want them in about 20 mins of driving.

 

I have that derale fluid control thermo, as well as 4 intake fans on the atf cooler hooked up to a 170F thermostat switch. My FMIC and intake fans on the cooler block a good amount of air to the cooler, my cooler is also a smaller 10row approx 1” thick x 4.5” tall x 11.5” wide. The purpose of that setup was all for speeding up warm up but still provide adequate cooling once warm. The fans turn on when trans temp reaches 190F as the fluid at the thermostat switch is just before the trans cooler and is a bit lower vs where the trans takes the temp from. Those fans have rarely ever turned on, only during summer heat wave after a long commute and some hooning to bump the temp up quickly at the end of the commute have they come on.

Im in WA so temps typically aren’t too crazy in any direction. Part of the problem is commute is mostly hwy/fwy so trans is chilling 2-3k rpm cruising not adding much heat to the system.

my oil will hit 170f in approximately 10mins which is usually the green light before I start making pulls and having a little fun, however in previous vehicles my atf would be 140-150f once oil hit 170f which is warm enough for me but they all had atf heat exchangers. IIRC I’ve noticed on this car atf is about 110f when oil is 170f. I’d prefer trans being 140f+ before some hooning.

My concern with psi/flow isn’t about any components ability to handle it or burst pressure etc.. But

What potential negative effect would drastically reducing or increasing the pressure of the fluid returning to the transmission have. Since I don’t know exactly what it is stock. If someone does that would be helpful.

or,
Lets assume max output is 30psi and each cooler with the fittings/lines reduces flow 4psi per, having now 3 total or 12psi reduction, 18psi returning to the transmission would this cause any negative effect, its a large % drop? does the trans care about return pressure for anything?

so say I install a 22psi or 29psi constant pump to keep flow/pressure up but it turns out we have a lower pressure system like 5idle to 20psi at max, would having 17psi or 24psi extra at idle and 2-9psi extra at max do anything negative?

do you know where the return line goes? is it into the sump, or into some part of the trans that may depend on a certain amount of pressure?

might just send it with the 1.5gph/29psi pump and yolo. But maybe someone has some more info.

 

Really interesting.
From what I've been researching both lines go to the side of the trans into their channels that appear to enter and exit into the valve body. From everything I've looked at they both go into the valve body.

Now, being that you already have the Derale thermostat and based off on their specs it looks like you're already dropping the return pressure under 180F since it opens only 10% during those conditions so an additional cooler would lower it a bit more.
So instead of adding another cooler how about you install a solenoid valve after the Tstat to block that 10% going to the cooler and wire up the solenoid to a manual or thermo controlled switch.
To prove this theory all you would need to do is pinch both lines going to the cooler past the Tstat and inspect your warm up temp vs time.
Blocking the cooler wont hurt since the Tstat will be bypassing the pressure back like normal but should decrease warmup time since its not being cooled until the valve opens. You need to test this theory first as it will tell you how fast the trans can warm up on it's own without the cooler at all and then figure out if it's enough for you.

Is the cooler able to keep the temps stable during your hardest abuse?
Is the only issue you're trying to solve is reaching operating temp quickly?

Here's a quick draw of the solenoid.

 

It retains 100% flow/pressure on the return side to the transmission in all circumstances, it only blocks off the passage to the cooler side outlet, at about 160F the thermostat begins to open and is fully open by 180F for full flow to the cooler. When the thermostat is closed it limits flow to the cooler by blocking off 90% of the flow to the cooler and redirecting this 90% back to the return side / to the transmission. the 10% will go to the cooler to maintain system pressure and meet back up with the 90% at the return outlet of the derale.
So in all circumstances the return to the transmission will still have 100% flow/pressure, the derale thermo wont impact pressure back to the trans, it just a matter of what percentage of fluid goes to the cooler or bypasses it. Adding a longer "fluid loop" more fittings, elbows, restrictions, coolers etc.. will all drop pressure a little, to what extent I am not 100% sure.



I was NA this last summer and my setup maintained temps just fine, although I didn't hoon around as much as normal as I had just moved early July, but did test it out in a few scenarios and it worked out very well, however I recently went FI, the temps have been very cool recently so not issue at all, but I can imagine in the summer it may not be up to the task but will see, a heat exchanger will help warm up to 190F quicker and then help provide additional cooling beyond 190F, or whatever temp coolant is at.

However even in the summer time, but especially even more so now in the winter warm up time is very long, I am used to vehicles hitting about 190f coolant 170f oil and 140f atf at relatively the same time in approx 8-10mins of driving and use these numbers as the green light to get on her. However those had coolant to atf heat exchanger for faster trans warm up. This trans will be about 110f and take like 10 more mins to hit 140f, 20mins is way too long for minimum warmup temp in my opinion.
I have a large FMIC and intake fans on my cooler as well as it being a smaller cooler, the cooling capacity of the cooler especially before the derale thermostat fully opens and my fans kick on is incredibly limited.

here is my setup and my proposed setup, just concerned with altering flow/pressure too much what effect it might have on the trans if its drastically different. pretty sure a 1.5gph / 29psi pump wont be too far off but not 100% certain.

 

I see how now to obtain the proper warm up how much intricate the system needs to be.

I still suggest you try to pinch the cooler upon warm up to see if the 10% that does make it to the cooler lowers the warm up time this way you can get some base results of without any type of cooler/warmer what should be your minimum time to reach warm up and then inch out from there.

It being FI space is very important for you so adding the pump will clutter that area a lot more, any space savings will help.

I'm trying to come up with a simple space saving system, something that doesnt incorporate a pump (Try to avoid the pump as much as you can)
Here's another option:

This way it utilized the factory warmer. While Derale is closed and solenoid open it will flow through the radiator and warm it.
You can then wire up the solenoid manually or to close upon temp.
Once it closes it stops flow through the rad and keeps the Derale working like you have it right now.
Doing it this way means upgrading cooler size wont affect warm ups.

 

I believe you would also need a solenoid in “orange” line after the y to “red” line that is closed while “green” line is open and then swap at a certain temp to stop all flow to derale, but then it sort of defeats the purpose of the derale but also the derale allows 10% flow instead of 0% for a reason to prevent air pockets and thermal shock.

my cooler/derale/fan setup has been used on 2 previous builds which i tested warm up before/after the coolers and it did not impact warm up maybe added 30seconds. But those both had atf coolant HX. I installed my cooler setup on this car almost immediately after taking delivery so don’t have data without it, but considering how it’s setup (especially with even less airflow vs previous builds) if its slowing warm up down it would be marginal maybe 30sec to a minute at most, I’m working on a solution for 5-10mins faster so trans is ready at same time as engine.

im not too concerned with space, space infront of the rad is maxed out with trans cooler, oil cooler, SC cooler/ filter and FMIC, but behind radiator fan has enough space to mount the heat exchanger, the pump is actually pretty small, worst case scenario I remove WWF reservoir and get a chase bays WWF res which I plan to do anyways just not yet but If needed I’ll do sooner not a big deal. If I can’t squeeze the pump and HX behind rad fan ill put one where WWF res is.

here is the HX for reference, not that big but big enough for application,

HX1220:F12 B3-12A 20 Plate Stainless Steel Heat Exchanger

and 2 pump options I’m debating but leaning more to the 3, they are relatively small considering.

marco up2 oil 12v gear pump .88gph/22psi
or
marco up3 oil 12v gear pump 1.45gph/29psi

 

In my diagram, the NC solenoid needs to be added to the return on the factory radiator to prevent pressure from going back from the "back to trans outlet" of the Derale.
By adding the solenoid you stop flow to the OEM warmer and this can be done once it reaches certain temp. In my diagram once the car warms up it will stop utilizing the radiator warmer since it will solely rely on the Derale.
Once the warm up even has been reached and the solenoid closes the fluid between the warmer doesnt move until you open the solenoid again manually or once the temp sensor allows it.
In my diagram you wouldn't be changing much from your setup right now other than adding a T to the "Derale Feed" so it can feed the warmer and a solenoid on the warmer to stop returning flow from the warmer back into the "back to trans outlet"

See if this clarifies it a bit more.

 

yes that clarifies it, but I’m not the sure the point or benefit vs my current setup or maybe you didn’t understand my illustration of my current setup?

On that setup, assuming 50% of total flow splits to the radiator when solenoid is open and then 50% of total flow continues into the derale and of that 50% to derale 10% goes to cooler, or 5% of total flow vs normally 10% of total flow on my setup, so a slight benefit, but then you reduce flow to the radiator by 50%, vs 100% going to the radiator on my current setup, And once the solenoid closes reduce all flow to the radiator, which the radiator should once the trans is warmed up provide a tiny bit of added cooling.

my current flow goes from the trans, to the derale,then the derale return goes to the radiator and radiator to trans, when derale opens flow goes to the cooler then to the radiator then to the trans.

my plan is to add a HX then a self priming pump before the derale to provide warming and additional cooling once warm at all times, then flow the rest of the system as I currently have. Reason for pump inbetween coolers is to potentially help regulated pressure and flow to/from the trans, might not really matter but it might be easier to plum in that way for space anyways.

My issue isnt over cooling, its the trans doesn’t generate much heat in normal casually cruising. I need to add heat into the system somehow from an external source.

would be interested to see someone’s warm up time from cold start comparing time, coolant temp, oil temp, and trans temp on a car with no modifications to the cooling system. IE Coolant 6mins, oil 8mins trans 18minutes to xyz temps. also what rpm/style of driving and ambient temp. Us fwy/hwy commuters suffer more on slow warm up times vs city drivers.

 

I completely missed that you had the radiator warmer already(thought that's what you were aiming for) and if this is the case then you can ditch the radiator warmer all together and concentrate on the warmer.
Maybe a crazy idea however have you thought about an engine block type heater that you can turn off and on. They sell inline heaters as well as heater pads you can place under the trans pan to heat it up?
Something like this and cover the entire pan with it, turn it on and off on command.
The second one has the ability to heat up to 150F.
Maybe dedicated power from the battery to make sure it sees proper amperage. If this works you can even delete the radiator warmer and forget the pump, etc.

 

the atf portion of the radiator is a tiny little sliver, and the radiator itself is pretty cold, it’s ability to warm the atf fluid is almost non existent. A lot of other cars have an actual HX, new Q50/60s for example. This is really the best, most efficient, simplest solution.

My previous 2 builds a 17’ 86, and 17’ Q50 both have an actual HX and also utilize the rad for additional cooling. On both I bypassed the rad portion once I added my own atf cooler, I had the derale after the HX so it’s always being utilized for warming and added cooling. But because this car has no real HX i opted to retain the rad portion, I’ve thought about removing the rad portion when adding my own HX however a HX will be way more restrictive blocking flow/psi compared to the tiny sliver in the rad so bypassing that still doesn’t solve my concern, if the transmission psi/flow rate isn’t designed with an HX in mind let alone the atf cooler l. Am i slowing the flow/psi to much to create a negative effect on how the trans operates? that is my concern. It very well may not even be a concern depending on if it relies on that flow/psi for something, or if it has a regulator and can regulate it up to not have psi/flow drop, or maybe a pump may resolve the concern. Cost/install is no issue to me for this setup as its cheap and easy to plum/wire in, my only concern is if by chance i change the flow/psi up or down too much. That is why my original question of wanting to know the flow rate/psi in those lines.

I have thought about using those warmers for the trans/engine but they have numerous flaws and reasons I opted against, they draw a lot of power, and don’t produce a lot of heat or warm up the fluid very quickly. People plug those into an outlet for 30-60mins before driving to get temps up to like 80f-100f and as temp increases and the delta between fluid temp and the warmer temp decreases the rate of fluid temp change decreases. I want an automated self regulated system that will be of use at any moment regardless if I’m at home or at work etc… not something Id need to plug in and somehow hide the wires when not plugged in, or if hard wired only have turned on when the car is on as it would kill the battery but then the rate it heats the fluid is too slow to add much benefit at that point.

the best solution for this is going to be the solution majority of oem manufactures utilize a coolant to atf HX. Will probably cut warm up time in half on the trans, add increased cooling capacity at operating temp and require zero input from the end user (me). Assuming I set it up correctly from the jump.

 

I understand. I'll try to get some data from mines. I do have an external oil cooler and live in South FL so some of my parameters will be different vs yours and your location.

 

25min drive to work, mostly freeway.
45F outside ambient temp
Temps all started at 63F (garage temp)
transmission had just hit 120F as I was parking after 25min drive.
Oil hit 170F today in about 12mins when Trans was at about 98F and oil hit about 185F as I was parking IIRC.
Definitely concerning especially for the added stress when making boost, wouldn't be surprised if this was a big contributing factor for all the boosted AT trans failures once boosted.
I imagine most people when boosted are monitoring oil temps and once they hit a certain desired oil temp start making pulls, but might not be monitoring trans temps, chances are the trans is still very cold. Typical ideal trans operating range is similar to most engines 170-220F, ATF fluid I believe has a slightly wider range compared to engine OIL especially on the colder side so 140F is probably a safe temp to start doing pulls.

Curious anyone else's trans temp warmup times.