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The issue here is personal agenda on a commercially produced product that is in the hands of a young crowd lead by the Highest and Most which leads to the "Best"
Nothing grinds my gears more than the sheer ignorance of asking the masses which product should they choose based only on the "BEST" when the client doesn't even care about the best. Just doesn't want to make a wrong move and be bullied online.
The demand for the best is satisfied simply by obtaining some data + looks + backed behind by results that only focuses "Highest/ Most" Folks simply make some average math based on these results and simply try to replicate these results.
There is no proven point venting is any better other than word of mouth + past experience with high revving decent hp making engines. This pressure has to go somewhere but it seems like the consensus is concentrated on introducing oil into the cylinder which lowers power
its all about the money and that most / majority of people who are blindsided go for the numbers rather than whats right. you can run 600 on stock block but does that make it reliable? no.
The peoples voice matters too, and honestly would you rather have a stock system, with the reliability and how the car is supposed to run, or 5 extra hp with vapors flying all around your engine bay
TL;DR: version: idiots buy stuff they're told is good, regardless of science.
Darn pesky science!
So here's a data point - what do pro-level racecars do? I know top fuel drag engines use vacuum crankcase scavenging to get a little more efficiency (venturi tube welded into the exhaust).
What do F1 engines use? If the performance-over-all-else folks scavenge crankcase vapors, there's a reason, and it ain't CARB.
TL;DR: version: idiots buy stuff they're told is good, regardless of science.
Darn pesky science!
So here's a data point - what do pro-level racecars do? I know top fuel drag engines use vacuum crankcase scavenging to get a little more efficiency (venturi tube welded into the exhaust).
What do F1 engines use? If the performance-over-all-else folks scavenge crankcase vapors, there's a reason, and it ain't CARB.
So the choices are
Closed system with an "intricate" system to get oil vapors to stick to the walls and condensate back into the valve cover
Vented to atmosphere
Vacuum pump to pull vacuum on the crank case (you do need some low tension rings so enough vacuum can pull on these rings)
Exhaust vacuum from a venturi device to pull a vacuum on the crank case
Lastly for super cars and F1 they use a dry sump system with a separate oil container from where it collects and sends back. These tanks can have a vented cap to act like a vented catch can, vacuum can be introduced to this system as well but to the external tank and it will work as well.
The biggest issue here is trying to get an efficient power making if anything happy medium.
Folks dont want oil in their manifolds - this stands out in almost all of the cases
Some dont mind the smell- I do and it will overtime moisten the closest area to the vent ( dont like it either)
NO ONE wants to folk out the same money of intakes for a device that will deal with the new problem.
We can make fantastic things by hand and theory let alone printing. It still seems like the general consensus doesnt understand this system entirely and prefers to delete or bypass when a simple 3D printed design of the OEM setup with better baffling on the inside as well as some separating device that would go in between the PCV is too much.
While observing my clear hoses on an OEM configuration I noticed 1-2 drops of oil over hours of idling which though it aint much over 1 year it will add up. I noticed this oil once it passes the PCV it stays in the tube until it's sucked up but it never drains back into the engine due to the PCV one way valve preventing so.
I filed down some 1/8th oil separator fittings and jammed them in those same tubes and the results were that oil now doesnt enter the manifold but stays stuck in the line.
That's when lightbulb struck.
What if we moved the PCV from the valve cover closer to the intake manifold? Manifold - PCV- Oil separator - Valve cover
It would mean that any oil that enters the line has to be separated first by the fitting and then that cleaner air passes through the PCV what ever doesnt make it past the oil separator can drain back through the now gutted PCV fitting. This would result in a like OEM recirculated setup and decreasing oil contamination + no need to run lines that require to be visually appeasing.
So this is my setup on my engine stand at home.
Since I dont have any evap on the engine stand and wanted a cleaner look I used the evap vacuum feeds for PCV. ( Your's will look different)
If you pay attention to the last pic, I've edited it to reflect what I mean.
The OEM PCV is unable to separate vapors, one of the reasons why the valve is left on the engine is for ergonomics, Less chances of the system failing at the hose since the PCV does condensate but very minimally. However anything that passes the PCV cannot come back into the engine due to the one way design, I noticed this when I went with clear hoses, oil still enters the hose as it's supposed to. I was under the impression the oil separator would do better however over the course of time it accumulates up until a high vacuum even is seen and this oil is consumed.
My new idea is to place the PCV (custom) closer to the intake manifold and place the oil separator before the PCV.
The way it should work is: vapors leave the VC and hit the separator and are split, the now cleaner vapors will enter the manifold and whatever doesnt enter will drain back into the VC when the engine is off.
In theory if you have PCV oil consumption problems this idea should slow down or possibly eliminate it without the need of a can.
Oil vapors caught are not the same as when they're in their original state. What y'all find in the can is also in the crank case for the exception that hoses and other parameter can contaminate it further and make it look like evilness that need to be rid of but in reality can stay in the engine. They will be recycled and with a more efficient recycling system you'll keep burning fuel vapors and keep the oil in the crank case
i think youre onto something bull i can smell it, and its not an oil smell
Originally Posted by rotarymike
What are you using for an oil/vapor separator? I thought that was the point of the can.
The point is to ditch the can if possible. The invention of the can came from the inability to properly separate these gasses in the oem configuration.
It is true that this system that I have in mind would require more maintenance than the original however if it rids the vapors without the need of a can or weird contraptions and sends just fuel vapors without it cluttering the engine bay I would call that a win on my book.
If this idea works, then some proper engineering and maybe printing would improve the design even more.
PS: I would love to post this in FB VHR group however the last time I posted something about PCV/Crankcase pressures the Owner of EPS got really upset at this and called me an idiot for even entertaining the idea and asking about it. Ever since I've dropped the idea of crankcase crankcase vacuum devices etc. Got super mad that someone would question all of his work and research. Was expecting a more professional approach from his end and not what I got
were going closed baby! and were jerry rigging the hell out of it too.
So I have the undying fear that the AN fitting will get sucked into my motor, so we are just going to completely ditch that idea. Heres the new and improved redneck edition:
closed pcv catchcan setup, we all know how that works.
1. for the hose that goes into the intakes, we are going to take the 2.5 - 3 inch coupler, and cut the ever most perfect sized 3/8ths hole for the hose to snugly fit into it.
2. We aren't going to shove that hose that deep into the coupler, we are going to keep it as flush as we can
3. Take some 2 ton epoxy, or some kind of high heat high strength rubber welding/epoxy material and just smother the hell out of it, this will not only create an air tight seal, but keep the hose in place.
4. were done! This will replicate the factory PCV system
my only concern is the hose "bending" basically upside down to reach the coupler to comply with the closed setup, but I think with enough length and as long as the bend isnt like 90 degrees, there shouldnt pose any problems
this should fix:
my oil smell on fresh air mode
rough idle
any other **** ups the motor is taking from a non traditional setup
And provide a better "catch" from the catch cans, because everythings being captured, and not half vented out.
also this should help with sludge and moisture in the catch can because it wont be exposed to the outside elements.
ZERO epoxy. In all honesty epoxy won't hold for long. Rtv will have a better change
this might actually give me a better piece of mind, theres no stopping something like that haha. the couplers are built tough, and definitely wouldn't sink in and cave a bigger hole.
again, ill use some RTV or something to create a really tight seal / reinforcement around it
i bought the last 2 they had in stock, hopefully it ships and isnt a dud, cause i cant seem to find any other listings that are 3/8ths
@BULL im almost done gathering all the supplies, these 2 fittings unfortunately wont be here for like 2 weeks, hopefully sooner, it sucks cause this exact fitting which is perfect for my application very rarely comes in 3/8ths
anyway though, so the hoses going into the intakes, stock they have this weird like shape to them, not sure why, but would just connecting a standard hose directly to it be fine? I feel like the way its designed was supposed to slow the airflow down but I could be wrong, so im just hoping using plain old hose will do just fine
@BULL im almost done gathering all the supplies, these 2 fittings unfortunately wont be here for like 2 weeks, hopefully sooner, it sucks cause this exact fitting which is perfect for my application very rarely comes in 3/8ths
anyway though, so the hoses going into the intakes, stock they have this weird like shape to them, not sure why, but would just connecting a standard hose directly to it be fine? I feel like the way its designed was supposed to slow the airflow down but I could be wrong, so im just hoping using plain old hose will do just fine
The bends are there to have the vapor hit that wall and stick to it which is a design type move to help separate the oils. In reality the though the hose nipple on the VC is big the hole inside is about 1/8th in size so there is a limit to how much it can "breathe" since it actually does breath. Maybe some type of steel fibers from a wool/brush that you could jam inside of the hole will be the best you'll ever make the system.
Another possibility is to add an inline air compressor oil separator in between the hose and VC but aesthetically it will look crappy.
Using silicone for the types of hoses you use will give you the best bend without kink ratio as possible as well with a much lower chance at the hose deteriorating due to contamination from oil.
12-08-2022, 01:47 PM
