Different gas stations vs miles per gallon
#46
Banned
iTrader: (5)
From multiple BMW drivers who used less-than-premium fuel for a while. Messes something up, gives sensors the wrong reading, and overtime, your cats go. I'm not a mechanic, so I don't know how it works, but I personally know people who did that and then said, "damn, I wish I stuck to premium." It might not be the same with our G's, but still. Factually, using less-than-premium in a car that requires premium does no good.
Using a fuel other than that specified could
adversely affect the emission control system,
and may also affect warranty coverage.
● Under no circumstances should a leaded
gasoline be used, because this will damage
the three-way catalyst.
#49
There is a lot of wrong, unsupported, and plain fabricated information in this thread. (There is also some accurate information…) Please do not rage on me until you try and understand what I am saying in this post from an objective standpoint. I am NOT flaming anyone NOR is any part of this post aimed at anyone specific!
Because different stations use different services with different additives at different times, it is near impossible to delineate REAL differences of brand gasoline(s). That said there are some stations that are much more consistent than others.
Before you go buying additives look at the cost of racing fuel/aero grade fuel and do some math. If you need help or further explanation I would be happy to give it. Suffice it to say, MOST additives, unless used solely as a detergent, are a rip off.
There is no more "power" in one fuel from another, so to say. I will steer clear from giving a lecture on iso-octane and the comparative RON (rating system). HOWEVER the caveat is in the semantics. The ‘raw’ fuel itself has no more ‘power’. In fact, this myth of one fuel burning ‘faster’ or more ‘powerful’ is an absurdity. The difference that you are seeing is the fuel’s resistance to engine-knock (pre/self-ignition). In a very basic explanation, the higher the octane the higher pressure the fuel can be compressed to before it ‘self-ignites’. Anyone who understands turbo systems must have a strong grasp on this concept (or follow it unknowingly). There is one major deviation from this “fuel is fuel” explanation. That is the additives a company/refinery will/might put in the fuel. THIS INCLUDES, but is obviously not limited to, ethanol. When we consider these bastard excuses for profit and EPA mindless communism, we start seeing a difference in ‘energy’ output / (specified) volume of fuel. Methanol has less than half of gasoline’s specific energy / energy by raw volume; ethanol is generally about one third. SO the 91octane of America (with 10% ethanol) has less energy by volume then Europe’s 91octane (with 3%). Where these numbers are not PftA , they are not exact, that would require a lecture style post... lol
I would argue, and could support, that additives DO matter. (To what degree is quite another issue.) What is more concerning to me is how the gas is kept, transported, and refined. If you want to argue that a person can go to 5 different stations and all the 5 petrol samples will be the same, I will point out you do not have a grasp on the reality of this subject.
Many made the point that the same truck will go to the two different places. Where they might receive the same gasoline this assumption cannot always be concluded. The obvious point being - a single truck can provide more than 1 RON type of fuel.
Subjective evidence is just that. People, let us not go around making rash judgments, statements, or even postulations based on a one time, uncontrolled experience. Right as we may be, it is absurd to pose knowledge based on this type of lazy behavior. I always maintained [on other car forums] that if you do not KNOW give an opinion stated as an opinion; if you KNOW help others to understand from fact.
Bottom line, there are many factors that contribute to knock. Do not think that running a higher octane will get you ‘more power’. Once the limitations of timing (not considering mods or dyno tuning) have been reached, there is ‘nothing’ more to gain by higher grade fuel. The antithesis of this is also true – once your vehicle’s timing has compensated to its limit, a lower grade fuel will reduce performance.
I hope this helps people to understand some of the ‘science’ of this issue. If you would like clarification, think I am full of it, or simply want more information, let me know; I would be happy to help/respond.
Because different stations use different services with different additives at different times, it is near impossible to delineate REAL differences of brand gasoline(s). That said there are some stations that are much more consistent than others.
Before you go buying additives look at the cost of racing fuel/aero grade fuel and do some math. If you need help or further explanation I would be happy to give it. Suffice it to say, MOST additives, unless used solely as a detergent, are a rip off.
There is no more "power" in one fuel from another, so to say. I will steer clear from giving a lecture on iso-octane and the comparative RON (rating system). HOWEVER the caveat is in the semantics. The ‘raw’ fuel itself has no more ‘power’. In fact, this myth of one fuel burning ‘faster’ or more ‘powerful’ is an absurdity. The difference that you are seeing is the fuel’s resistance to engine-knock (pre/self-ignition). In a very basic explanation, the higher the octane the higher pressure the fuel can be compressed to before it ‘self-ignites’. Anyone who understands turbo systems must have a strong grasp on this concept (or follow it unknowingly). There is one major deviation from this “fuel is fuel” explanation. That is the additives a company/refinery will/might put in the fuel. THIS INCLUDES, but is obviously not limited to, ethanol. When we consider these bastard excuses for profit and EPA mindless communism, we start seeing a difference in ‘energy’ output / (specified) volume of fuel. Methanol has less than half of gasoline’s specific energy / energy by raw volume; ethanol is generally about one third. SO the 91octane of America (with 10% ethanol) has less energy by volume then Europe’s 91octane (with 3%). Where these numbers are not PftA , they are not exact, that would require a lecture style post... lol
I would argue, and could support, that additives DO matter. (To what degree is quite another issue.) What is more concerning to me is how the gas is kept, transported, and refined. If you want to argue that a person can go to 5 different stations and all the 5 petrol samples will be the same, I will point out you do not have a grasp on the reality of this subject.
Many made the point that the same truck will go to the two different places. Where they might receive the same gasoline this assumption cannot always be concluded. The obvious point being - a single truck can provide more than 1 RON type of fuel.
Subjective evidence is just that. People, let us not go around making rash judgments, statements, or even postulations based on a one time, uncontrolled experience. Right as we may be, it is absurd to pose knowledge based on this type of lazy behavior. I always maintained [on other car forums] that if you do not KNOW give an opinion stated as an opinion; if you KNOW help others to understand from fact.
Bottom line, there are many factors that contribute to knock. Do not think that running a higher octane will get you ‘more power’. Once the limitations of timing (not considering mods or dyno tuning) have been reached, there is ‘nothing’ more to gain by higher grade fuel. The antithesis of this is also true – once your vehicle’s timing has compensated to its limit, a lower grade fuel will reduce performance.
I hope this helps people to understand some of the ‘science’ of this issue. If you would like clarification, think I am full of it, or simply want more information, let me know; I would be happy to help/respond.
Trucks that deliver fuel have multiple compartments to deliver from. From my experience, as the owner of a gas station myself, these compartments will hold 3400 gallons, 2700 gallons, 1800 gallons, and 1100 gallons - for a total of 9,000 gallons.
There are times when I order 87 octane, 93 octane, and diesel fuel all delivered by the same truck.
Why 9,000 gallons? There are a couple of reasons. One is the gross weight of the truck when full of fuel is very close to the maximum the D.O.T. allows a truck to weigh.
Another is the capacity of the underground storage tanks (UST's). Mine are 10,000 gallons each - of which 10% is reserved for expansion. Basically I can only fit 9,000 gallons of fuel in a 10,000 gallon tank.
I could write a book on gas station operation, why different stations appear to give more or less gas mileage, and why different pumps dispense more or less than the amount of gas you see displayed on the meter (yes, they're inspected annually...but there are tolerances the pumps can operate within and still pass inspection). Honestly though, you guys and girls are participating on a forum devoted to late model, high performance vehicles with current values from $25k - $45k, so further discussion of the miniscule differences in gas mileage delivered from brand to brand and station to station is, in my opinion, infinitely pointless.
If you're obsessing about gas mileage to this degree, please do yourself a favor and trade your G in for a Prius. If you're participating because you really want to put the best into your car, that's fine. All gasoline today contains additives that will take care of your car just fine.
#50
Registered Member
iTrader: (5)
Is to me, I dont think I get anymore WHP or at least anything I notice, But just use it to keep everything clean. I ran a test a few years ago with this stuff(15 years ago) Where a ran 93 oct same station for 8 week. Took the carb and intake off and looked at the ports. They where a little and had some build up on them. Cleaned them off put it back on and ran 8 more weeks and used this stuff 4 times( Twice a month).. Took the intake off again I could have eating of it. Since then still using it. Only thing is only two places sell it near me. So I always get 5 bottles 2 for myself,2 for the wifes G and one for her bike( Smaller bottle 16 ounces).
#51
Registered Member
iTrader: (5)
Thanks for posting something of value. I'll expand a little further on one of your points.
Trucks that deliver fuel have multiple compartments to deliver from. From my experience, as the owner of a gas station myself, these compartments will hold 3400 gallons, 2700 gallons, 1800 gallons, and 1100 gallons - for a total of 9,000 gallons.
There are times when I order 87 octane, 93 octane, and diesel fuel all delivered by the same truck.
Why 9,000 gallons? There are a couple of reasons. One is the gross weight of the truck when full of fuel is very close to the maximum the D.O.T. allows a truck to weigh.
Another is the capacity of the underground storage tanks (UST's). Mine are 10,000 gallons each - of which 10% is reserved for expansion. Basically I can only fit 9,000 gallons of fuel in a 10,000 gallon tank.
I could write a book on gas station operation, why different stations appear to give more or less gas mileage, and why different pumps dispense more or less than the amount of gas you see displayed on the meter (yes, they're inspected annually...but there are tolerances the pumps can operate within and still pass inspection). Honestly though, you guys and girls are participating on a forum devoted to late model, high performance vehicles with current values from $25k - $45k, so further discussion of the miniscule differences in gas mileage delivered from brand to brand and station to station is, in my opinion, infinitely pointless.
If you're obsessing about gas mileage to this degree, please do yourself a favor and trade your G in for a Prius. If you're participating because you really want to put the best into your car, that's fine. All gasoline today contains additives that will take care of your car just fine.
Trucks that deliver fuel have multiple compartments to deliver from. From my experience, as the owner of a gas station myself, these compartments will hold 3400 gallons, 2700 gallons, 1800 gallons, and 1100 gallons - for a total of 9,000 gallons.
There are times when I order 87 octane, 93 octane, and diesel fuel all delivered by the same truck.
Why 9,000 gallons? There are a couple of reasons. One is the gross weight of the truck when full of fuel is very close to the maximum the D.O.T. allows a truck to weigh.
Another is the capacity of the underground storage tanks (UST's). Mine are 10,000 gallons each - of which 10% is reserved for expansion. Basically I can only fit 9,000 gallons of fuel in a 10,000 gallon tank.
I could write a book on gas station operation, why different stations appear to give more or less gas mileage, and why different pumps dispense more or less than the amount of gas you see displayed on the meter (yes, they're inspected annually...but there are tolerances the pumps can operate within and still pass inspection). Honestly though, you guys and girls are participating on a forum devoted to late model, high performance vehicles with current values from $25k - $45k, so further discussion of the miniscule differences in gas mileage delivered from brand to brand and station to station is, in my opinion, infinitely pointless.
If you're obsessing about gas mileage to this degree, please do yourself a favor and trade your G in for a Prius. If you're participating because you really want to put the best into your car, that's fine. All gasoline today contains additives that will take care of your car just fine.
#52
Registered User
From multiple BMW drivers who used less-than-premium fuel for a while. Messes something up, gives sensors the wrong reading, and overtime, your cats go. I'm not a mechanic, so I don't know how it works, but I personally know people who did that and then said, "damn, I wish I stuck to premium." It might not be the same with our G's, but still. Factually, using less-than-premium in a car that requires premium does no good.
#53
Personally, after seven years driving a 150-hp 1973 Dodge Charger that would consistently get 14 m.p.g. on the highway, I don't understand why people think the G gets "bad" gas mileage. For a powerful, normally-aspirated, fun to drive car, the G gets very good gas mileage. It's no Civic..and I wouldn't enjoy driving a Civic.
#54
Registered Member
iTrader: (5)
Personally, after seven years driving a 150-hp 1973 Dodge Charger that would consistently get 14 m.p.g. on the highway, I don't understand why people think the G gets "bad" gas mileage. For a powerful, normally-aspirated, fun to drive car, the G gets very good gas mileage. It's no Civic..and I wouldn't enjoy driving a Civic.
#55
Registered Member
iTrader: (13)
Personally, after seven years driving a 150-hp 1973 Dodge Charger that would consistently get 14 m.p.g. on the highway, I don't understand why people think the G gets "bad" gas mileage. For a powerful, normally-aspirated, fun to drive car, the G gets very good gas mileage. It's no Civic..and I wouldn't enjoy driving a Civic.
AHAH at least you got double digets in mileage. I used to get 7-8 if I was lucky.. LOL but that was a 650HP Monte SS , I get 16-17 MPG and think it GREAT, Mostly city driving,.
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There is a lot of wrong, unsupported, and plain fabricated information in this thread. (There is also some accurate information…) Please do not rage on me until you try and understand what I am saying in this post from an objective standpoint. I am NOT flaming anyone NOR is any part of this post aimed at anyone specific!
Because different stations use different services with different additives at different times, it is near impossible to delineate REAL differences of brand gasoline(s). That said there are some stations that are much more consistent than others.
Before you go buying additives look at the cost of racing fuel/aero grade fuel and do some math. If you need help or further explanation I would be happy to give it. Suffice it to say, MOST additives, unless used solely as a detergent, are a rip off.
There is no more "power" in one fuel from another, so to say. I will steer clear from giving a lecture on iso-octane and the comparative RON (rating system). HOWEVER the caveat is in the semantics. The ‘raw’ fuel itself has no more ‘power’. In fact, this myth of one fuel burning ‘faster’ or more ‘powerful’ is an absurdity. The difference that you are seeing is the fuel’s resistance to engine-knock (pre/self-ignition). In a very basic explanation, the higher the octane the higher pressure the fuel can be compressed to before it ‘self-ignites’. Anyone who understands turbo systems must have a strong grasp on this concept (or follow it unknowingly). There is one major deviation from this “fuel is fuel” explanation. That is the additives a company/refinery will/might put in the fuel. THIS INCLUDES, but is obviously not limited to, ethanol. When we consider these bastard excuses for profit and EPA mindless communism, we start seeing a difference in ‘energy’ output / (specified) volume of fuel. Methanol has less than half of gasoline’s specific energy / energy by raw volume; ethanol is generally about one third. SO the 91octane of America (with 10% ethanol) has less energy by volume then Europe’s 91octane (with 3%). Where these numbers are not PftA , they are not exact, that would require a lecture style post... lol
I would argue, and could support, that additives DO matter. (To what degree is quite another issue.) What is more concerning to me is how the gas is kept, transported, and refined. If you want to argue that a person can go to 5 different stations and all the 5 petrol samples will be the same, I will point out you do not have a grasp on the reality of this subject.
Many made the point that the same truck will go to the two different places. Where they might receive the same gasoline this assumption cannot always be concluded. The obvious point being - a single truck can provide more than 1 RON type of fuel.
Subjective evidence is just that. People, let us not go around making rash judgments, statements, or even postulations based on a one time, uncontrolled experience. Right as we may be, it is absurd to pose knowledge based on this type of lazy behavior. I always maintained [on other car forums] that if you do not KNOW give an opinion stated as an opinion; if you KNOW help others to understand from fact.
Bottom line, there are many factors that contribute to knock. Do not think that running a higher octane will get you ‘more power’. Once the limitations of timing (not considering mods or dyno tuning) have been reached, there is ‘nothing’ more to gain by higher grade fuel. The antithesis of this is also true – once your vehicle’s timing has compensated to its limit, a lower grade fuel will reduce performance.
I hope this helps people to understand some of the ‘science’ of this issue. If you would like clarification, think I am full of it, or simply want more information, let me know; I would be happy to help/respond.
Because different stations use different services with different additives at different times, it is near impossible to delineate REAL differences of brand gasoline(s). That said there are some stations that are much more consistent than others.
Before you go buying additives look at the cost of racing fuel/aero grade fuel and do some math. If you need help or further explanation I would be happy to give it. Suffice it to say, MOST additives, unless used solely as a detergent, are a rip off.
There is no more "power" in one fuel from another, so to say. I will steer clear from giving a lecture on iso-octane and the comparative RON (rating system). HOWEVER the caveat is in the semantics. The ‘raw’ fuel itself has no more ‘power’. In fact, this myth of one fuel burning ‘faster’ or more ‘powerful’ is an absurdity. The difference that you are seeing is the fuel’s resistance to engine-knock (pre/self-ignition). In a very basic explanation, the higher the octane the higher pressure the fuel can be compressed to before it ‘self-ignites’. Anyone who understands turbo systems must have a strong grasp on this concept (or follow it unknowingly). There is one major deviation from this “fuel is fuel” explanation. That is the additives a company/refinery will/might put in the fuel. THIS INCLUDES, but is obviously not limited to, ethanol. When we consider these bastard excuses for profit and EPA mindless communism, we start seeing a difference in ‘energy’ output / (specified) volume of fuel. Methanol has less than half of gasoline’s specific energy / energy by raw volume; ethanol is generally about one third. SO the 91octane of America (with 10% ethanol) has less energy by volume then Europe’s 91octane (with 3%). Where these numbers are not PftA , they are not exact, that would require a lecture style post... lol
I would argue, and could support, that additives DO matter. (To what degree is quite another issue.) What is more concerning to me is how the gas is kept, transported, and refined. If you want to argue that a person can go to 5 different stations and all the 5 petrol samples will be the same, I will point out you do not have a grasp on the reality of this subject.
Many made the point that the same truck will go to the two different places. Where they might receive the same gasoline this assumption cannot always be concluded. The obvious point being - a single truck can provide more than 1 RON type of fuel.
Subjective evidence is just that. People, let us not go around making rash judgments, statements, or even postulations based on a one time, uncontrolled experience. Right as we may be, it is absurd to pose knowledge based on this type of lazy behavior. I always maintained [on other car forums] that if you do not KNOW give an opinion stated as an opinion; if you KNOW help others to understand from fact.
Bottom line, there are many factors that contribute to knock. Do not think that running a higher octane will get you ‘more power’. Once the limitations of timing (not considering mods or dyno tuning) have been reached, there is ‘nothing’ more to gain by higher grade fuel. The antithesis of this is also true – once your vehicle’s timing has compensated to its limit, a lower grade fuel will reduce performance.
I hope this helps people to understand some of the ‘science’ of this issue. If you would like clarification, think I am full of it, or simply want more information, let me know; I would be happy to help/respond.
USA
76 Stations
Aloha Petroleum
Chevron
Conoco
CountryMark
Entec Stations
Exxon
Holiday Stationstores, Inc.
Kwik Trip / Kwik Star
MFA Oil Co.
Mileage Stations
Mobil
Phillips 66
Quik Trip
Rebel Oil
Road Ranger
Severson Oil
Shell
Texaco
The Somerset Refinery, Inc.
Tri-Par Oil Co.
U.S. Oil
Since 1995, the EPA created a mandate requiring all fuel manufacturers to have a certain level of detergents (additive agents which help keep fuel burning clean and prevent the adhesion of damaging carbon deposits on engine components such as valves, spark plugs and catalytic converters) in gasoline. By law all manufacturers heeded this mandate, so, some increased the amount of detergents while other decreased the amount (in interest of saving money). All of them had at minimum met the government standard.
"Six of the world's top automakers, BMW, General Motors, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen and Audi recognize that the current EPA minimum detergent requirements do not go far enough to ensure optimal engine performance"(Top Tier Gasoline).
To combat inferior detergent levels, automakers created a new classification of gasoline known as Top Tier Detergent gasoline. While different companies use different detergents and additives, they all pretty much do the same thing; which is keeping your engine clean so it will last longer =D. Using a top tier fuel means you are at minimum meeting the industry standard for fuel. Using anything else simply means that you fall short of even the minimum.
All in all, all petroleum (gasoline) fuels are the same (with the exception of those including ethanol - which technically isn't a petroleum fuel). As adroitcaptor said, there is no more "power; in one fuel to another. Chemically speaking, petroleum gasoline has only so many hydrocarbons to burn per unit volume and this will not change from manufacturer to manufacturer. (anything different would require synthesized fuels - or a different source e.g. not fossil fuel crude oil)
So all gasolines are the same except that some have more detergent in them.
Same power - different quality (possibly/probably longer engine life)
definitely longer time meeting emission requirements, haha (of course this also depends on your driving style; the harder you drive the more unburnt fuel you will have leaving the cylinders and depositing carbon on your catalytic converter.)
Use a top tier fuel. You won't (shouldn't) consistently experience a difference in power but your vehicle will last longer.
happy driving!
#58
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And dude... chill with the aggressive tone. This is a discussion not an argument. Lets just share what we know and increase the overall knowledge in the community.