Stillen/GTM Supercharger Pros, Cons, and Questions
08-08-2011 | 07:11 PM
#166
I bought a GTM stage 1 SC kit back in May. The actual installation took about 5 days, but I ran into some small to moderate problems which took about 2 months total to resolve, cause she is my daily it took longer than it really should have. ALL the problems resolved by the shop who did the installation not by GTM. Although, I still have unresolved issue with GTM.. which I do not have much confidence that it will get resolved.. any time soon atleast.
I am not trying to steer people away for getting a TT or SC. I just want people to know that you should have alot of patience, expect extra cost and extra time. Plan ahead, for example, if she is your daily it will be inconvient for you to leave her at the shop while waiting for installation or repairs. Of course every situation is different and every person is different.
The shop that did my installation was IMO extremely accomadating to me and was 100% on my side to get the problem resolved. It was because of them and the service they provided me, that I was able to be patient enough to keep the kit.
IMO, every contract, verbal or in writing, has to be beneficial for both parties or it will not be called a contract. Any one sided deal that is beneficial to only one party can be contested, challenged in court.
I am not trying to steer people away for getting a TT or SC. I just want people to know that you should have alot of patience, expect extra cost and extra time. Plan ahead, for example, if she is your daily it will be inconvient for you to leave her at the shop while waiting for installation or repairs. Of course every situation is different and every person is different.
The shop that did my installation was IMO extremely accomadating to me and was 100% on my side to get the problem resolved. It was because of them and the service they provided me, that I was able to be patient enough to keep the kit.
IMO, every contract, verbal or in writing, has to be beneficial for both parties or it will not be called a contract. Any one sided deal that is beneficial to only one party can be contested, challenged in court.
Eagerly waiting
Sam
08-08-2011 | 07:28 PM
#167
I bought a GTM stage 1 SC kit back in May. The actual installation took about 5 days, but I ran into some small to moderate problems which took about 2 months total to resolve, cause she is my daily it took longer than it really should have. ALL the problems resolved by the shop who did the installation not by GTM. Although, I still have unresolved issue with GTM.. which I do not have much confidence that it will get resolved.. any time soon atleast.
I am not trying to steer people away for getting a TT or SC. I just want people to know that you should have alot of patience, expect extra cost and extra time. Plan ahead, for example, if she is your daily it will be inconvient for you to leave her at the shop while waiting for installation or repairs. Of course every situation is different and every person is different.
The shop that did my installation was IMO extremely accomadating to me and was 100% on my side to get the problem resolved. It was because of them and the service they provided me, that I was able to be patient enough to keep the kit.
IMO, every contract, verbal or in writing, has to be beneficial for both parties or it will not be called a contract. Any one sided deal that is beneficial to only one party can be contested, challenged in court.
I am not trying to steer people away for getting a TT or SC. I just want people to know that you should have alot of patience, expect extra cost and extra time. Plan ahead, for example, if she is your daily it will be inconvient for you to leave her at the shop while waiting for installation or repairs. Of course every situation is different and every person is different.
The shop that did my installation was IMO extremely accomadating to me and was 100% on my side to get the problem resolved. It was because of them and the service they provided me, that I was able to be patient enough to keep the kit.
IMO, every contract, verbal or in writing, has to be beneficial for both parties or it will not be called a contract. Any one sided deal that is beneficial to only one party can be contested, challenged in court.
08-08-2011 | 08:39 PM
#168
Former Sponsor
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 211
Likes: 3
Kyle, have you ever taken a basic Chemistry class in high school? PV = nRT. Elevation = pressure Temperature is temperature Humidity affects density. Engine oil temperature isn't a factor because it is a constant; it will always be there once equilibrium is reached. Coolant temperature also isn't a factor because it is a constant that will reach equilibrium at operating temperature. If equilibrium is not reached, and the temps are going up, then obviously there is insufficient cooling for the given setup, which is a serious issue that needs to be addressed.
You guys are tuning for reliabilty, but you're complying with a customer's complaint that its not making enough power? How exactly are you adding power when you are unable to make most of the adjustments we're typically used to making? Leaning the engine out? Is this what is causing those (i'm assuming here since you didn't explicitly state it) changes in temperature? Does the customer want a dyno queen or something that is to be driven?
The 2nd time the kit was used, engine failure was caused by injector failure; isn't this something that should have been caught by basic troubleshooting? I'm sure your facility has the ability to flowbench injectors. Do your tunes not have fail-safes built in?
You guys are tuning for reliabilty, but you're complying with a customer's complaint that its not making enough power? How exactly are you adding power when you are unable to make most of the adjustments we're typically used to making? Leaning the engine out? Is this what is causing those (i'm assuming here since you didn't explicitly state it) changes in temperature? Does the customer want a dyno queen or something that is to be driven?
The 2nd time the kit was used, engine failure was caused by injector failure; isn't this something that should have been caught by basic troubleshooting? I'm sure your facility has the ability to flowbench injectors. Do your tunes not have fail-safes built in?
The equation for computing brake horsepower, assuming 85% mechanical efficiency, was very slightly revised (and is presented here converted to use pressure in mb) as:
Section 5.1 of the SAE J1349 AUG2004 revision also makes it clear that this correction factor is not intended to provide accurate corrections over an extremely wide range, but rather that the intended range of air temperatures is 15 to 35 deg C, and the intended range of dry air pressures is 900 to 1050 mb. So if it is under 60 degrees SAE is not accurate!
What the SAE correction factor CANT do is factor in the IAT timing curve modification. I see regularly timing change 2-3 degrees due to a moderate change in IAT. On the supercharged VQ platform that can cause a swing of 20-30 HP very easily. So we would have a noticeable swing in timing input, barring us hitting the knock threshold we would easily make more power on a cold day, not to mention the increase in boost pressure we would see on a colder day. The SAE correction factor does air correction… not boost or timing….. nothing else.
Yes we would have caught it if it had acted up here. Apparently the car ran well for two weeks after his second visit before there was an issue which may have been the beginning of the injector failure.
Yes there are safeguards built into every tune. However, the vehicle has to hit certain thresholds of failure before it sets off any kind of warning. If the injector was failing at high duty cycles but OK at lower percentages you would be fine at everything but at WOT when you need it most. To catch a failure like that you would need an A/F gauge or EGT in every exhaust port… not really feasible other than engine dyno testing or actual racing vehicle.
Most likely the ECU would not have flagged the injector until it either constantly misfires or changes resistance. Unfortunately by the time that happens the damage may already be done.
In regards to increasing horsepower as a customer wishes, this is only possible if a tune is not optimized. As I mentioned in an earlier post we have found that identical cars with identical roms can sometimes respond differently to identical tunes. There is no good reason as to why this happens, it just does. It's not very common but in these cases we do stand by our product and we work hard to get it resolved. As was demonstrated when our engineers stayed late on a Friday night until this customer's tune had been refined and was putting down nearly 400 wheel horsepower.
All tuners will send out a canned tune that errors on the side of caution, meaning on the rich side. In this case it was overly rich. By analyzing the data logs and dyno graphs our engineers were able to increase horsepower and still keep the car very safe.
Last edited by kyle@stillen; 08-08-2011 at 08:44 PM.
08-08-2011 | 09:16 PM
#169
No, I have not taken a High School chemistry course however I do have years of experience in the aftermarket automotive industry and know the difference between theory and reality.
The equation for computing brake horsepower, assuming 85% mechanical efficiency, was very slightly revised (and is presented here converted to use pressure in mb) as:
Section 5.1 of the SAE J1349 AUG2004 revision also makes it clear that this correction factor is not intended to provide accurate corrections over an extremely wide range, but rather that the intended range of air temperatures is 15 to 35 deg C, and the intended range of dry air pressures is 900 to 1050 mb. So if it is under 60 degrees SAE is not accurate!
What the SAE correction factor CANT do is factor in the IAT timing curve modification. I see regularly timing change 2-3 degrees due to a moderate change in IAT. On the supercharged VQ platform that can cause a swing of 20-30 HP very easily. So we would have a noticeable swing in timing input, barring us hitting the knock threshold we would easily make more power on a cold day, not to mention the increase in boost pressure we would see on a colder day. The SAE correction factor does air correction… not boost or timing….. nothing else.
Yes we would have caught it if it had acted up here. Apparently the car ran well for two weeks after his second visit before there was an issue which may have been the beginning of the injector failure.
Yes there are safeguards built into every tune. However, the vehicle has to hit certain thresholds of failure before it sets off any kind of warning. If the injector was failing at high duty cycles but OK at lower percentages you would be fine at everything but at WOT when you need it most. To catch a failure like that you would need an A/F gauge or EGT in every exhaust port… not really feasible other than engine dyno testing or actual racing vehicle.
Most likely the ECU would not have flagged the injector until it either constantly misfires or changes resistance. Unfortunately by the time that happens the damage may already be done.
In regards to increasing horsepower as a customer wishes, this is only possible if a tune is not optimized. As I mentioned in an earlier post we have found that identical cars with identical roms can sometimes respond differently to identical tunes. There is no good reason as to why this happens, it just does. It's not very common but in these cases we do stand by our product and we work hard to get it resolved. As was demonstrated when our engineers stayed late on a Friday night until this customer's tune had been refined and was putting down nearly 400 wheel horsepower.
All tuners will send out a canned tune that errors on the side of caution, meaning on the rich side. In this case it was overly rich. By analyzing the data logs and dyno graphs our engineers were able to increase horsepower and still keep the car very safe.
The equation for computing brake horsepower, assuming 85% mechanical efficiency, was very slightly revised (and is presented here converted to use pressure in mb) as:
Section 5.1 of the SAE J1349 AUG2004 revision also makes it clear that this correction factor is not intended to provide accurate corrections over an extremely wide range, but rather that the intended range of air temperatures is 15 to 35 deg C, and the intended range of dry air pressures is 900 to 1050 mb. So if it is under 60 degrees SAE is not accurate!
What the SAE correction factor CANT do is factor in the IAT timing curve modification. I see regularly timing change 2-3 degrees due to a moderate change in IAT. On the supercharged VQ platform that can cause a swing of 20-30 HP very easily. So we would have a noticeable swing in timing input, barring us hitting the knock threshold we would easily make more power on a cold day, not to mention the increase in boost pressure we would see on a colder day. The SAE correction factor does air correction… not boost or timing….. nothing else.
Yes we would have caught it if it had acted up here. Apparently the car ran well for two weeks after his second visit before there was an issue which may have been the beginning of the injector failure.
Yes there are safeguards built into every tune. However, the vehicle has to hit certain thresholds of failure before it sets off any kind of warning. If the injector was failing at high duty cycles but OK at lower percentages you would be fine at everything but at WOT when you need it most. To catch a failure like that you would need an A/F gauge or EGT in every exhaust port… not really feasible other than engine dyno testing or actual racing vehicle.
Most likely the ECU would not have flagged the injector until it either constantly misfires or changes resistance. Unfortunately by the time that happens the damage may already be done.
In regards to increasing horsepower as a customer wishes, this is only possible if a tune is not optimized. As I mentioned in an earlier post we have found that identical cars with identical roms can sometimes respond differently to identical tunes. There is no good reason as to why this happens, it just does. It's not very common but in these cases we do stand by our product and we work hard to get it resolved. As was demonstrated when our engineers stayed late on a Friday night until this customer's tune had been refined and was putting down nearly 400 wheel horsepower.
All tuners will send out a canned tune that errors on the side of caution, meaning on the rich side. In this case it was overly rich. By analyzing the data logs and dyno graphs our engineers were able to increase horsepower and still keep the car very safe.
The fact remains that corrected horsepower is corrected horsepower. Your quoted range on SAE J1349 is 15-35C. 90C falls into that range.
SAE doesn't give a flying fark what IAT is. It only cares about ambient conditions. If your IAT is rising, it's a result of the system. IAT will directly correlate with ambient temperature. If ambient is cooler, then IAT will be cooler. If IAT increase is so drastic that you're losing 20-30hp, perhaps you need to design a better system to reduce IAT. To reiterate, boost and timing are tuning parameters, not ambient condition parameters.
NONE of this changes the fact that corrected output is corrected output. The conditions fall within the specified range. 59f-95f is a pretty large range.
Going back to theory vs reality, why bother with formulas, when you know the differences?
Even if a single cylinder is running lean, a single wideband, or even a narrowband would detect a lean condition. In that case, I would say it's the customer's fault for not taking the proper precautions on a modified car.
08-08-2011 | 10:11 PM
#171
@Kyle! it doesn't matter anymore, it's the past already and i've let it all go and moved on. i have a better kit now which actually works great on every aspect. i'm not trying to bad mouth you guys at all, i'm just speaking from experience and other G or Z owners experience that your tunes are pretty wack. i can easily dig up multiple post about your tune doesn't work for most people, or it doesn't make enough power especially when the end user had thought they would make this much power from your kit. you can't blame them or me for being upset!
anyhow, i do appreciate you guys hooking me up with these nice brakes. it was one of those modification i had absolutely no regret on buying.
have a good day!
anyhow, i do appreciate you guys hooking me up with these nice brakes. it was one of those modification i had absolutely no regret on buying.
have a good day!
08-09-2011 | 02:38 PM
#173
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 277
Likes: 0
I think the conclusion we can reach from all the thread out there is that, Stillen has a much worse track record then GTM, the fact that more people comes out and complained about their kit means they aren't consistent with their product. On the other hand, GTM has had nothing other then good and happy reviews about the quality of their kit, simply show it's better designed and engineered.
That's why i choose GTM for my car, and I will be heading there two weeks from now
That's why i choose GTM for my car, and I will be heading there two weeks from now
11-11-2012 | 02:19 AM
#175
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
From: SOVA
The car I had before this one was a 2004 Dodge SRT-4 (Stage 2) and one of the best mods i had on the car was a 180 degree Thermostat that greatly reduced the operating temp of my 2.4L turbocharged engine from 205-210 down to around 180.
I saw that Mishimoto sells 150 degree thermostats for G37's and I guess what I'm getting at here is how do you guys feel about running one of these cooler thermostats in an engine that seems to suffer from stress due to high amounts of heat? Especially one that is supercharged like mine.
Any Pro's and Con's on this mod for a forced-induction vehicle?
11-11-2012 | 02:37 PM
#177
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
From: SOVA
Thanks Boomer!! And yes...I spoke to the dealership and the setup was overheating the stock tranny, so since Grant was such an awesome customer to them and obviously dropped a lot of money there at the dealership with the purchase of the car and having all these mods installed under their roof. They were able to pull some strings for him and get him a brand new one under the warranty policy. But this time, they complemented the new tranny by installing a complete transmission cooling system to it. I spoke to their tech, and he said they tested it and it was on the car when Grant and the tech drove it from Louisville KY, to Chicago, IL to have it tuned by AMS. Tech said the new tranny held up perfectly, the cooling system was doing it's job and the setup is now perfect.
Last edited by slims; 11-11-2012 at 02:52 PM.
11-11-2012 | 02:56 PM
#178
Thanks Boomer! I answered that question here in post #5
https://www.myg37.com/forums/newbie-...y-first-g.html
https://www.myg37.com/forums/newbie-...y-first-g.html
11-12-2012 | 03:19 PM
#179
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
From: SOVA
03-25-2013 | 02:58 PM
#180
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 590
Likes: 29
From: Van City
That is why when I went stillen I put everything possible in it, oil and tranny cooler along with meth injection and a few other things. I have had it for a year now and runs like a dream! One thing I hated about stillen when I got my kit was the wiring. So it went straight in the garbage and I upgraded all the wiring! In conclusion I love my stillen, just thought I would say that since there was soo much bad things being said about it. Just letting people know that it can be a fun and reliable thing if installed correctly with the needed add-ons.