mods = power loss??
05-05-2009, 06:25 PM
#46
Administrator
^ you won't be smoking anyone off the line with NA bolt ons..not without a tune at least.. but from a rolling start its a different story
05-05-2009, 06:30 PM
#47
LA G Club
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: L.A. Cali
Posts: 2,233
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So your saying that the reason his car feels sluggish from take off is because he has paddle shifters as opposed to MT
I have a MT and I'm trying to decide which mod I want to do first that I can get the most gain from
I have a MT and I'm trying to decide which mod I want to do first that I can get the most gain from
05-05-2009, 07:14 PM
#48
Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For about the same price you can get a CAI, but most of your power is between 6500-7500RPM.
05-05-2009, 07:28 PM
#49
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There seems to be a lot of discussion lately on how bolt ons "kill" your torque, or makes it "feel" sluggish. All the talk is mostly just that, talk. Nobody has really shown with actual data that bolt ons reduce your torque/hp. In fact, if you do a quick search, you'll find the opposite. It took me a minute to find this:
https://www.myg37.com/forums/engine-...no-sheets.html
Check out bboysteeles dyno before an after all the basic mods (intake, catback, and HFC). 34whp and 17 TQ. They are good numbers, and I stress numbers. You can find many more like this as well.
You may notice that up until ~2350RPM the power and torque is about the same. I personally never drive in that RPM range. Show me how low end torque was reduced?
https://www.myg37.com/forums/engine-...no-sheets.html
Check out bboysteeles dyno before an after all the basic mods (intake, catback, and HFC). 34whp and 17 TQ. They are good numbers, and I stress numbers. You can find many more like this as well.
You may notice that up until ~2350RPM the power and torque is about the same. I personally never drive in that RPM range. Show me how low end torque was reduced?
You just proved the point in your very post.
Up until 2350 RPM, there is a decrease in torque as the lines intersect right aroudn 2350, only then do the mods actually produce a net positive gain.
That is considered low end. You never stop in your drives? Last time I checked, unless people constantly launched their cars at 4k RPMs from a standstill, you always bypass 1-3k RPMs, so if anything you're almost always shifting and cruising right around low 2K rpms.
Nobody is disputing peak numbers so mentioning the net peak torque and horsepower gain is a moot point.
05-05-2009, 08:07 PM
#50
Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You just proved the point in your very post.
Up until 2350 RPM, there is a decrease in torque as the lines intersect right aroudn 2350, only then do the mods actually produce a net positive gain.
That is considered low end. You never stop in your drives? Last time I checked, unless people constantly launched their cars at 4k RPMs from a standstill, you always bypass 1-3k RPMs, so if anything you're almost always shifting and cruising right around low 2K rpms.
Nobody is disputing peak numbers so mentioning the net peak torque and horsepower gain is a moot point.
Up until 2350 RPM, there is a decrease in torque as the lines intersect right aroudn 2350, only then do the mods actually produce a net positive gain.
That is considered low end. You never stop in your drives? Last time I checked, unless people constantly launched their cars at 4k RPMs from a standstill, you always bypass 1-3k RPMs, so if anything you're almost always shifting and cruising right around low 2K rpms.
Nobody is disputing peak numbers so mentioning the net peak torque and horsepower gain is a moot point.
C'mon dude. Look at it again. HP difference is negligable and difference in torque is 1-2 ft-lbs. The OP title is "Mods=powerloss", there is clearly lots of power produced at >2350 with a few bolt ons.
I don't launch my car everytime, but I am rarely ever under 2350RPM. Definitely never cruising around low 2k rpms.
I don't want to be argumentative, but telling beginners that bolt on mods=torque loss is extremely misleading.
05-05-2009, 08:20 PM
#51
Most people don't modify their cars so that their daily driving habit/style would be more exciting, but rather whenever they feel like pushing their car, or just driving spiritedly, which happens quite often more than you think, those horsepower gains can be realized.
Don't forget that there is also the sound benefit. I would think that nearly all of those who get aftermarket intakes, exhausts, whatever, would agree with me in that if their aftermarket part only came with horsepower gain and zero change in sound, their appreciation of the modification will be significantly diminished.
Don't forget that there is also the sound benefit. I would think that nearly all of those who get aftermarket intakes, exhausts, whatever, would agree with me in that if their aftermarket part only came with horsepower gain and zero change in sound, their appreciation of the modification will be significantly diminished.
yes, there are horsepower gains, but like i said in my original post....the amount of low end that u lose is almost not worth it....just my 2 cents...
i use to be a high rpm freak since i'm from the honda family...my last car was an acura tuned to redline at 8000rpm (factory at 7), and i was all about the numbers....but now that the car has a few kilometers on it, and i'm slowly phasing out of the aftermarket scene....i've noticed that all the parts on my honda are annoying me more than making my drive "enjoyable"...especially the spoon n1 muffler...haha
05-05-2009, 08:30 PM
#52
There seems to be a lot of discussion lately on how bolt ons "kill" your torque, or makes it "feel" sluggish. All the talk is mostly just that, talk. Nobody has really shown with actual data that bolt ons reduce your torque/hp. In fact, if you do a quick search, you'll find the opposite. It took me a minute to find this:
https://www.myg37.com/forums/engine-...no-sheets.html
Check out bboysteeles dyno before an after all the basic mods (intake, catback, and HFC). 34whp and 17 TQ. They are good numbers, and I stress numbers. You can find many more like this as well.
You may notice that up until ~2350RPM the power and torque is about the same. I personally never drive in that RPM range. Show me how low end torque was reduced?
https://www.myg37.com/forums/engine-...no-sheets.html
Check out bboysteeles dyno before an after all the basic mods (intake, catback, and HFC). 34whp and 17 TQ. They are good numbers, and I stress numbers. You can find many more like this as well.
You may notice that up until ~2350RPM the power and torque is about the same. I personally never drive in that RPM range. Show me how low end torque was reduced?
first off, thanks for the dyno sheets, those don't mean jack to me....it's a piece of paper with some numbers on it....which btw, can be bias to some extent....remember, the person who gets their car dynoed is a "paying" customer...no paying customer wants to see parts that they just bought lose power...
but back to the topic...i dunno if anyone really knows how to read a dyno sheet....but usually where it says max hp or max torque....that's the MAX reading on the entire power curve...and torque isn't just an off the line number...torque is still produced anywhere up to 5 or even 6000rpm's until the horsepower takes over the powerband....with that being said...it means that the number where it says max torque gain can actually be at 5000rpm and not at 1500-2000rpm which i call low-end torque....or off the line torque....this is the part where most people complain about their vehicle feeling "sluggish"...and i don't need to show u on a piece of paper that the car feels sluggish....why don't u start another thread with a poll...and see how many people have felt that they lost their low-end/off-the line torque after intakes and exhaust? i'll put money that 10/10 people will say that they have felt some sort of difference with the throttle response of the vehicle...
i use to be like u guys, i use to think that intakes never reduced power anywhere, and that it was the best investment u can make on an N/A vehicle, etc etc....but after owning 4 different types of intakes and messing around with the ecu, and different exhaust setups, etc etc...i still have to say factory is the best
05-05-2009, 08:40 PM
#53
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
C'mon dude. Look at it again. HP difference is negligable and difference in torque is 1-2 ft-lbs. The OP title is "Mods=powerloss", there is clearly lots of power produced at >2350 with a few bolt ons.
I don't launch my car everytime, but I am rarely ever under 2350RPM. Definitely never cruising around low 2k rpms.
I don't want to be argumentative, but telling beginners that bolt on mods=torque loss is extremely misleading.
I don't launch my car everytime, but I am rarely ever under 2350RPM. Definitely never cruising around low 2k rpms.
I don't want to be argumentative, but telling beginners that bolt on mods=torque loss is extremely misleading.
Well, there's nothing faulty with the statement that there is some power loss due to the lower output of torque at lower RPMs, which is the actual point of this thread.
Nobody is doubting that you can produce the same, if not more, torque and power, since power is a function of torque, for most of the RPM band.
It is misleading to say mods = torque loss, but it is also misleading to say there is no torque loss at lower RPMs.
05-05-2009, 08:43 PM
#54
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yea, like you said, when they feel like pushing their cars...but i would have to say roughly 75% of the time, it's mostly following traffic rules....meaning your a sitting duck in rush hour traffic or stop and go at every light...
yes, there are horsepower gains, but like i said in my original post....the amount of low end that u lose is almost not worth it....just my 2 cents...
i use to be a high rpm freak since i'm from the honda family...my last car was an acura tuned to redline at 8000rpm (factory at 7), and i was all about the numbers....but now that the car has a few kilometers on it, and i'm slowly phasing out of the aftermarket scene....i've noticed that all the parts on my honda are annoying me more than making my drive "enjoyable"...especially the spoon n1 muffler...haha
yes, there are horsepower gains, but like i said in my original post....the amount of low end that u lose is almost not worth it....just my 2 cents...
i use to be a high rpm freak since i'm from the honda family...my last car was an acura tuned to redline at 8000rpm (factory at 7), and i was all about the numbers....but now that the car has a few kilometers on it, and i'm slowly phasing out of the aftermarket scene....i've noticed that all the parts on my honda are annoying me more than making my drive "enjoyable"...especially the spoon n1 muffler...haha
Keep in mind that this is simply a subjective viewpoint and you'll have to accept that some people are willing to put some money into products like aftermarket intakes or headers/exhaust for their own benefit, whatever it may be.
Don't forget that this is also car specific. If you drive a C6 corvette, getting some Longtube headers is a WORLD'S difference in sound and significant power production across virtually the whole RPM band.
05-05-2009, 08:49 PM
#55
LA G Club
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: L.A. Cali
Posts: 2,233
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah thats actually the mod I was leaning in getting for awhile now
the berks HFC
heard good things about them and people where happy with them and the FI
HFC
they give consistant power which I like
but now for some reason at the begining of this year Cali made them illegal
and I'm in L.A.
I still really want to get an HFC though, just don't want to deal with all the B.S. like what does that do when I need to get a smog check, and I don't want any cel lights to come on.
the berks HFC
heard good things about them and people where happy with them and the FI
HFC
they give consistant power which I like
but now for some reason at the begining of this year Cali made them illegal
and I'm in L.A.
I still really want to get an HFC though, just don't want to deal with all the B.S. like what does that do when I need to get a smog check, and I don't want any cel lights to come on.
Get HFC. I'm getting FI very soon, but a lot of people like berk too. Most bang for your buck for any bolt on. You can probably expect ~10whp and it will pretty much be across the power band.
For about the same price you can get a CAI, but most of your power is between 6500-7500RPM.
For about the same price you can get a CAI, but most of your power is between 6500-7500RPM.
05-05-2009, 08:50 PM
#56
Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hum...ok, i'll play along...
first off, thanks for the dyno sheets, those don't mean jack to me....it's a piece of paper with some numbers on it....which btw, can be bias to some extent....remember, the person who gets their car dynoed is a "paying" customer...no paying customer wants to see parts that they just bought lose power...
but back to the topic...i dunno if anyone really knows how to read a dyno sheet....but usually where it says max hp or max torque....that's the MAX reading on the entire power curve...and torque isn't just an off the line number...torque is still produced anywhere up to 5 or even 6000rpm's until the horsepower takes over the powerband....with that being said...it means that the number where it says max torque gain can actually be at 5000rpm and not at 1500-2000rpm which i call low-end torque....or off the line torque....this is the part where most people complain about their vehicle feeling "sluggish"...and i don't need to show u on a piece of paper that the car feels sluggish....why don't u start another thread with a poll...and see how many people have felt that they lost their low-end/off-the line torque after intakes and exhaust? i'll put money that 10/10 people will say that they have felt some sort of difference with the throttle response of the vehicle...
i use to be like u guys, i use to think that intakes never reduced power anywhere, and that it was the best investment u can make on an N/A vehicle, etc etc....but after owning 4 different types of intakes and messing around with the ecu, and different exhaust setups, etc etc...i still have to say factory is the best
first off, thanks for the dyno sheets, those don't mean jack to me....it's a piece of paper with some numbers on it....which btw, can be bias to some extent....remember, the person who gets their car dynoed is a "paying" customer...no paying customer wants to see parts that they just bought lose power...
but back to the topic...i dunno if anyone really knows how to read a dyno sheet....but usually where it says max hp or max torque....that's the MAX reading on the entire power curve...and torque isn't just an off the line number...torque is still produced anywhere up to 5 or even 6000rpm's until the horsepower takes over the powerband....with that being said...it means that the number where it says max torque gain can actually be at 5000rpm and not at 1500-2000rpm which i call low-end torque....or off the line torque....this is the part where most people complain about their vehicle feeling "sluggish"...and i don't need to show u on a piece of paper that the car feels sluggish....why don't u start another thread with a poll...and see how many people have felt that they lost their low-end/off-the line torque after intakes and exhaust? i'll put money that 10/10 people will say that they have felt some sort of difference with the throttle response of the vehicle...
i use to be like u guys, i use to think that intakes never reduced power anywhere, and that it was the best investment u can make on an N/A vehicle, etc etc....but after owning 4 different types of intakes and messing around with the ecu, and different exhaust setups, etc etc...i still have to say factory is the best
Off the line? Who goes off the line at <2300 rpm?
I can read a graph, and realize that the numbers I quoted were max. But there is clear power gains to be had with a few bolt ons. You can be synical all you want and say that they are only due to someone making them appear that way for a paying customer, but this is not the only dyno graph I can show you. I have data, you have a "feeling". The original post was "mods=power loss" not mods equal a few pounds of negligable torque loss below 2300 RPM.
Please don't misinterpert me, I realize there are some things lost in text translation. But, if you wanted low end torque, why did you buy a G37?
05-05-2009, 08:57 PM
#57
Keep in mind that this is simply a subjective viewpoint and you'll have to accept that some people are willing to put some money into products like aftermarket intakes or headers/exhaust for their own benefit, whatever it may be.
Don't forget that this is also car specific. If you drive a C6 corvette, getting some Longtube headers is a WORLD'S difference in sound and significant power production across virtually the whole RPM band.
Don't forget that this is also car specific. If you drive a C6 corvette, getting some Longtube headers is a WORLD'S difference in sound and significant power production across virtually the whole RPM band.
05-05-2009, 08:58 PM
#58
Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, there's nothing faulty with the statement that there is some power loss due to the lower output of torque at lower RPMs, which is the actual point of this thread.
Nobody is doubting that you can produce the same, if not more, torque and power, since power is a function of torque, for most of the RPM band.
It is misleading to say mods = torque loss, but it is also misleading to say there is no torque loss at lower RPMs.
Nobody is doubting that you can produce the same, if not more, torque and power, since power is a function of torque, for most of the RPM band.
It is misleading to say mods = torque loss, but it is also misleading to say there is no torque loss at lower RPMs.
05-05-2009, 09:02 PM
#59
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Werd. Don't get me wrong, I am a big advocate of aftermarket stuff, N/A or F/I. High RPM power is where it's at, brotha!
When I feel like being a fuel stickler, I do sometimes cruise around and shift at low RPMs, such as the past summer, when gas prices were what, 4.xx. Now...not so much, lol.
05-05-2009, 09:03 PM
#60
I have the gen3 intake, and I take it for what it's worth, a nudge at the high end with a nice growl. No difference down low. I'll agree with you and say that a short ram will decrease power due to heat soak.
Off the line? Who goes off the line at <2300 rpm?
I can read a graph, and realize that the numbers I quoted were max. But there is clear power gains to be had with a few bolt ons. You can be synical all you want and say that they are only due to someone making them appear that way for a paying customer, but this is not the only dyno graph I can show you. I have data, you have a "feeling". The original post was "mods=power loss" not mods equal a few pounds of negligable torque loss below 2300 RPM.
Please don't misinterpert me, I realize there are some things lost in text translation. But, if you wanted low end torque, why did you buy a G37?
Off the line? Who goes off the line at <2300 rpm?
I can read a graph, and realize that the numbers I quoted were max. But there is clear power gains to be had with a few bolt ons. You can be synical all you want and say that they are only due to someone making them appear that way for a paying customer, but this is not the only dyno graph I can show you. I have data, you have a "feeling". The original post was "mods=power loss" not mods equal a few pounds of negligable torque loss below 2300 RPM.
Please don't misinterpert me, I realize there are some things lost in text translation. But, if you wanted low end torque, why did you buy a G37?
i bought a G37 because i'm broke and this is all i could afford....