Some interesting information on dyno's, educate yourself!
11-25-2008, 03:37 AM
#1
Some interesting information on dyno's, educate yourself!
I recently experienced one of only 4 MAHA Dyno's in North America. There are 3 in the US and 1 in Canada. I had my car tuned with my Cobb AP at GoodSpeed Performance and all I can say is... WOW! It's a real eye opener when it comes to dynoing a car. Most dynos all depend greatly on the operators to get their results, meaning they are not true numbers for our cars. I advize everyone who is into cars/learning/horsepower/ and dyno's to read these links, and here what the MAHA dyno is all about, and how it compares to other dynos.
Link to MAHA's site. The dyno is the MAHA LPS3000
Link to GoodSpeed in Tempe, AZ explaining the MAHA
Here is how Jon at Good Speed Performance explained the MAHA in his own words on another Forum:
"First thing we learned about using the MaHa lps 3000
Is… forgetting everything you learned about all other wheel power calculating dynos. This is what we had to do, Joe and I have been using other dynos for years to tune and test cars and we put up some resistance at first until we unlearned what we had gotten so used to.
Other dynos can only give you wheel power #s. and this is ok if all your going to do Is look for the gain from a modification compared to stock, and you don’t need or care to know what the real power is. The wheel numbers are completely arbitrary.
One of the most common miscalculations in determining horse power was guessing the drive train loss.
Most people think that there car has a certain percentage of drive train loss, in fact drive train loss is not one set percentage its multiplication, the most common example is a person that has had there car dynoed at a shop with a DynoDynamics or a Dynojet or other simalar, will say something like… my car dynoed at 280 whp and the dyno operator told me my car is approximately 25% drive train loss, so my car must have 350hp at the crank.
First question we usually ask is At what RPM. if your peak HP is at 5000 RPM then you drive train loss is much less than it is at 7000RPM so for example lets say your drive train loss is 65 hp at 5000 rpm and it is 80 at 7000RPM then you have to know what the loss is at the exact RPM that you are making your max HP, or your #s are again completely arbitrary. And with all the different wheels brakes, light weight drive lines, even tires,,.. with out the ability to dyno you driveling you have no way of knowing what your real Hp # is.
This is why we have no question about high or low reading dyno we can always throw a stock car on and compare it to the factory SAE #s
A stock e46 M3 will put between 332 and 334 crank horse power on the MaHa dyno all day, factory #s 333.0 Hp, YES its that accurate."
"We always knew that drive train loss increased with rpm but we didn’t realize it was on such a curve and the difference from one model to another is surprising. It’s also nice to see the difference between a AWD and 2WD for losses. On the MAHA you can actually watch the drive train being calculated just like you would watch the horse power line It just runs from right to left and on all wheel drive cars you get to watch 2 lines one for the front and one for the rear, then it adds the front and rear together to calculate your total drive train loss at all rpm. This really helps us with diagnostics as well as tuning. Center diff going bad? This should let us know.
We can also shift tractive effort from front to rear, other dynos such as the DynoDynamics can give you a general reading of tractive effort, but we can actual control it, what dose this mean, well any one that has a R32 or a TT will most likely find that on most dynos you have a stumble where the Halidex is trying to transfer power front to rear ( some shops just unplug the unit and run it in FWD) some times you can get a full pull but even if you do a sloppy power line is the result and it makes it almost impossible to see a accurate power result, not to mention its murder on you cars drivetrain. Well thanks to Audi this is not a problem (and no the rollers are not connected) Audi needed a way to test there new AWD systems a few years and in early development they contracted MAHA to develop a way to combat this issue when dyno testing was needed, MAHA did there homework and the result trickled down to the LPS3000. This is one of the benefits of having a dynamometer from the same manufacture that provides dynos and test equipment for most of the major manufactures, Audi/Volkswagen, Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Ferrari, and on and on all have MaHa dynos in there facilities chances are if you have a car out of Germany it already been on a MAHA. In short the dynos software allows us run a primarily front wheel drive car with rear wheel drive assist by changing effort from rear to front, and this also works for AWD Porches that are primarily rear drive with front assist, by transferring front to rear. That goes the same for skylines especially the R34 where the front diff can’t ever fully disengage. And most other vehicles with computer controlled drivelines."
"No other dyno (Dynojet, mustang, dynodynamics) can be compared to the MAHA; it is in a class of its own. all others are not accurate enough to compare, only the MAHA is true engine power, on the MAHA it doesn’t mater what gear what load or any other operator factor the crank power is always the same, on other dynos the dyno operator can run a different gear or change the correction factor or a dozen other things to make the wheel # what ever they need it to be. With the MaHa it is always the same, REAL!"
I guess it boils down to this. You can't lie, or be mad, or make any excuses when using a MAHA dyno. There are no factors for people to tweak, there is no tinkering of key boards, or calculations going on by tuners. It is what it is, straight TRUTH. Now, was I shocked/surprised/sad by the drop in numbers when I used the MAHA? Yes! But it all made sense to me, when you think about what the other dyno's are telling you, it doesn't make sense. I actually saw my drivetrain loss in real time! It's shocking to see with all this money and time spent tuning and buying parts, people really have no idea what their engines are putting out in terms of HP and TQ. Now, with my Cobb tune complete, I could easily go back and drop $65 and get a dynojet session done showing 330 to 340 HP, but it is not accurate! Just think about this, and if anyone wants to take me up on this wager I'm more then willing to bet you for real! If you find 3 shops in the same city all using the same dyno, design/make/model, and did 3 pulls on each with the same tank of gas, on the same day so temp/humidity etc. are the same, I'll bet you get 3 different HP/TQ figures due to the shops calibrations and set up of the machines. Open your eyes people, and enter the world of the MAHA!
Link to MAHA's site. The dyno is the MAHA LPS3000
Link to GoodSpeed in Tempe, AZ explaining the MAHA
Here is how Jon at Good Speed Performance explained the MAHA in his own words on another Forum:
"First thing we learned about using the MaHa lps 3000
Is… forgetting everything you learned about all other wheel power calculating dynos. This is what we had to do, Joe and I have been using other dynos for years to tune and test cars and we put up some resistance at first until we unlearned what we had gotten so used to.
Other dynos can only give you wheel power #s. and this is ok if all your going to do Is look for the gain from a modification compared to stock, and you don’t need or care to know what the real power is. The wheel numbers are completely arbitrary.
One of the most common miscalculations in determining horse power was guessing the drive train loss.
Most people think that there car has a certain percentage of drive train loss, in fact drive train loss is not one set percentage its multiplication, the most common example is a person that has had there car dynoed at a shop with a DynoDynamics or a Dynojet or other simalar, will say something like… my car dynoed at 280 whp and the dyno operator told me my car is approximately 25% drive train loss, so my car must have 350hp at the crank.
First question we usually ask is At what RPM. if your peak HP is at 5000 RPM then you drive train loss is much less than it is at 7000RPM so for example lets say your drive train loss is 65 hp at 5000 rpm and it is 80 at 7000RPM then you have to know what the loss is at the exact RPM that you are making your max HP, or your #s are again completely arbitrary. And with all the different wheels brakes, light weight drive lines, even tires,,.. with out the ability to dyno you driveling you have no way of knowing what your real Hp # is.
This is why we have no question about high or low reading dyno we can always throw a stock car on and compare it to the factory SAE #s
A stock e46 M3 will put between 332 and 334 crank horse power on the MaHa dyno all day, factory #s 333.0 Hp, YES its that accurate."
"We always knew that drive train loss increased with rpm but we didn’t realize it was on such a curve and the difference from one model to another is surprising. It’s also nice to see the difference between a AWD and 2WD for losses. On the MAHA you can actually watch the drive train being calculated just like you would watch the horse power line It just runs from right to left and on all wheel drive cars you get to watch 2 lines one for the front and one for the rear, then it adds the front and rear together to calculate your total drive train loss at all rpm. This really helps us with diagnostics as well as tuning. Center diff going bad? This should let us know.
We can also shift tractive effort from front to rear, other dynos such as the DynoDynamics can give you a general reading of tractive effort, but we can actual control it, what dose this mean, well any one that has a R32 or a TT will most likely find that on most dynos you have a stumble where the Halidex is trying to transfer power front to rear ( some shops just unplug the unit and run it in FWD) some times you can get a full pull but even if you do a sloppy power line is the result and it makes it almost impossible to see a accurate power result, not to mention its murder on you cars drivetrain. Well thanks to Audi this is not a problem (and no the rollers are not connected) Audi needed a way to test there new AWD systems a few years and in early development they contracted MAHA to develop a way to combat this issue when dyno testing was needed, MAHA did there homework and the result trickled down to the LPS3000. This is one of the benefits of having a dynamometer from the same manufacture that provides dynos and test equipment for most of the major manufactures, Audi/Volkswagen, Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Ferrari, and on and on all have MaHa dynos in there facilities chances are if you have a car out of Germany it already been on a MAHA. In short the dynos software allows us run a primarily front wheel drive car with rear wheel drive assist by changing effort from rear to front, and this also works for AWD Porches that are primarily rear drive with front assist, by transferring front to rear. That goes the same for skylines especially the R34 where the front diff can’t ever fully disengage. And most other vehicles with computer controlled drivelines."
"No other dyno (Dynojet, mustang, dynodynamics) can be compared to the MAHA; it is in a class of its own. all others are not accurate enough to compare, only the MAHA is true engine power, on the MAHA it doesn’t mater what gear what load or any other operator factor the crank power is always the same, on other dynos the dyno operator can run a different gear or change the correction factor or a dozen other things to make the wheel # what ever they need it to be. With the MaHa it is always the same, REAL!"
I guess it boils down to this. You can't lie, or be mad, or make any excuses when using a MAHA dyno. There are no factors for people to tweak, there is no tinkering of key boards, or calculations going on by tuners. It is what it is, straight TRUTH. Now, was I shocked/surprised/sad by the drop in numbers when I used the MAHA? Yes! But it all made sense to me, when you think about what the other dyno's are telling you, it doesn't make sense. I actually saw my drivetrain loss in real time! It's shocking to see with all this money and time spent tuning and buying parts, people really have no idea what their engines are putting out in terms of HP and TQ. Now, with my Cobb tune complete, I could easily go back and drop $65 and get a dynojet session done showing 330 to 340 HP, but it is not accurate! Just think about this, and if anyone wants to take me up on this wager I'm more then willing to bet you for real! If you find 3 shops in the same city all using the same dyno, design/make/model, and did 3 pulls on each with the same tank of gas, on the same day so temp/humidity etc. are the same, I'll bet you get 3 different HP/TQ figures due to the shops calibrations and set up of the machines. Open your eyes people, and enter the world of the MAHA!
Last edited by AZg37; 11-25-2008 at 05:04 AM.
11-25-2008, 10:59 AM
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Hell ya I agree, Maha certainly for the win. After using the Maha dyno I almost can't even look at other peoples dyno charts because I feel they are inaccurate, which they are!
People usually list their elevation, ambient temp, humidity ect when doing their dyno becuase the dynojet/mustang dyno will always spit out different numbers due to those environmental factors. The Maha dyno can self adjust itself to environmental issues so the elevation, temp, humidity is never a factor. The number will will be the same if you dyno your car on a maha in January vs July. Not to mention these are made in delivered from Germany and we all know Germans know their car shi!t.
So if any of you people in SoCal wanna get REAL hp/tq/whp numbers on your car, you should make a weekend trip to Phoenix and give it a try
You'll be blown away by this dyno and the different variables it will output. If your true to your car, let the dyno be true to you so you know your real power numbers.
Can't wait to see your dyno's man, postem up once you get them from their online site.
People usually list their elevation, ambient temp, humidity ect when doing their dyno becuase the dynojet/mustang dyno will always spit out different numbers due to those environmental factors. The Maha dyno can self adjust itself to environmental issues so the elevation, temp, humidity is never a factor. The number will will be the same if you dyno your car on a maha in January vs July. Not to mention these are made in delivered from Germany and we all know Germans know their car shi!t.
So if any of you people in SoCal wanna get REAL hp/tq/whp numbers on your car, you should make a weekend trip to Phoenix and give it a try
You'll be blown away by this dyno and the different variables it will output. If your true to your car, let the dyno be true to you so you know your real power numbers. Can't wait to see your dyno's man, postem up once you get them from their online site.
11-25-2008, 03:51 PM
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i wasnt lazy enough to read it all like some people. good info.
would be nice to see a stock g37 dyno'd on it to really test it. as nice as it is to hear about other cars, we know our cars best.
would be nice to see a stock g37 dyno'd on it to really test it. as nice as it is to hear about other cars, we know our cars best.
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11-25-2008, 09:34 PM
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Anyone know German?
I have always told my customers, that the absolute number means very little. It's the delta that is important, and the area under the curve. Our dyno reads retarded low, but we dont care..it's great for steady state tuning, and our cars are faster.
I have always told my customers, that the absolute number means very little. It's the delta that is important, and the area under the curve. Our dyno reads retarded low, but we dont care..it's great for steady state tuning, and our cars are faster.
11-25-2008, 09:56 PM
#14
You can choose english on the maha.de site I don't remember the exact number I put down, and I didn't get any print outs from goodspeed because me, jon, and joe were there till about 9:30 PM and none of us had eaten in hours. I just wanted to get home. With using the Maha dyno, all my info will be listed and linked by my VIN on goodspeeds site. I'll have all my runs in pdf's within the week hopefully, and they will be posted. I believe my numbers were like 270ish wheel hp uncorrected with the tune, and like 350ish crank uncorrected. My drivetrain loss at peak HP was like 72.5hp. I'm not 100% on this but I'll have the documents in a few days 
P.S> I'm trying to give you the run around
I don't remember the exact number I put down, and I didn't get any print outs from goodspeed because me, jon, and joe were there till about 9:30 PM and none of us had eaten in hours. I just wanted to get home. With using the Maha dyno, all my info will be listed and linked by my VIN on goodspeeds site. I'll have all my runs in pdf's within the week hopefully, and they will be posted. I believe my numbers were like 270ish wheel hp uncorrected with the tune, and like 350ish crank uncorrected. My drivetrain loss at peak HP was like 72.5hp. I'm not 100% on this but I'll have the documents in a few days P.S> I'm trying to give you the run around
11-25-2008, 10:01 PM
#15
You guys are LAZY! compared to the posts in the political section, my first post was SHORT! I just wanted to share my experience and the stuff I learned with the rest of the forum, I found it quite interesting. I always wondered what typr of machine the big boy manufacturers used to get their info, and how dyno's compared to each other, why the numbers were different etc.. Sorry if you guys just like quick, too the point threads. You can't learn if you don't read 