Investigation of a Nismo 370z Brake Failure
05-06-2010, 05:07 PM
#1
Investigation of a Nismo 370z Brake Failure
Z Meets Wall: We Investigate Why the NISMO Z's Brakes Failed at Lightning Lap - Feature - Auto Reviews - Car and Driver
Investigation into why the Nismo Z suffered catastrophic brake failure during Lightning Lap 2010.
Also, comparison of Base brake pads, "Nismo/Infiniti R" brake pads, and a little extra.
Investigation into why the Nismo Z suffered catastrophic brake failure during Lightning Lap 2010.
Also, comparison of Base brake pads, "Nismo/Infiniti R" brake pads, and a little extra.
In the Z, with no warning, the brakes went from fully effective to missing in action in a single, disastrous stop from 130 mph. The pedal collapsed to the floor, and what remained of the braking power was only able to slow the car at a rate very much like stopping on snow. Fortunately, no one was injured when the brakeless missile introduced itself to a retaining wall so enthusiastically that it had to be removed using heavy equipment.
05-06-2010, 05:51 PM
#3
Registered User
I read that article. The conclusion was that there was not enough venting to cool the brakes....they upgraded to nismo pads and high temp brake fluid and it still cooked.
05-06-2010, 07:50 PM
#7
At least they admitted they tested and tested and couldn't duplicate a problem at all.
thats why all disclaimers are around for street or track use only
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05-06-2010, 08:26 PM
#8
Registered User
...and Mike, who stated that the last Nismo Z was a joke? Was it those pesky S2K owners again?
For your info:
http://archive.roadandtrack.com/arti...7&print_page=y
"The cars ran nearly identical times, with the Nismo Z beating the S2000 CR by a mere 0.29 second"
YouTube - H2H Ep 4, S2000 CR Vs. 350z Nismo
Nismo wins again
So any more useful posts in the matter Ayrton?....
05-06-2010, 09:07 PM
#9
last I checked, the 350z Nismo wasn't developed in house, and offered the same drivetrain. Other than cosmetics, there were no significant differences from a regular 350Z.
Not sure how a s2k got drawn in here, but we're running a topless S2kCR vs a Nismo Z on a power course. Way to disadvantage the s2k
Horses? Nismo
Weight? CR
Bigger tires? Nismo
Brakes? Nismo
Cd? Nismo
Frontal Area? CR
then why is the margin so razor thin at the track? Lets not forget we're comparing a 10 year old platform with no engine changes vs a 6 year old one with constant updates. Additionally, both cars are capable of faster times... although the S has more room for improvement. Times are documented at trackhq.
What would happen if we did some basic setup work... say... JUST an alignment? Oh wait, the Nismo can't gain camber in the front (and neither can the current Z for that matter). Uh oh.
Still doesn't change the fact that a supposed "track ready" car is not really. Really Nissan? No stock oil cooler?
Lets get back on topic.
Not sure how a s2k got drawn in here, but we're running a topless S2kCR vs a Nismo Z on a power course. Way to disadvantage the s2k
Horses? Nismo
Weight? CR
Bigger tires? Nismo
Brakes? Nismo
Cd? Nismo
Frontal Area? CR
then why is the margin so razor thin at the track? Lets not forget we're comparing a 10 year old platform with no engine changes vs a 6 year old one with constant updates. Additionally, both cars are capable of faster times... although the S has more room for improvement. Times are documented at trackhq.
What would happen if we did some basic setup work... say... JUST an alignment? Oh wait, the Nismo can't gain camber in the front (and neither can the current Z for that matter). Uh oh.
Still doesn't change the fact that a supposed "track ready" car is not really. Really Nissan? No stock oil cooler?
Lets get back on topic.
Last edited by Mike; 05-06-2010 at 09:17 PM.
05-07-2010, 12:29 AM
#10
Registered User
Full Test: 2007 Nissan Nismo 350Z
"Autech begins by taking the Z-car's chassis off the assembly line and welding the seams of the unit body by hand, a common practice in racing. This labor-intensive technique gives this car an added measure of structural rigidity compared to the customary spot-welded chassis of the other Zs that simply roll off the assembly line.
In addition, Autech has installed special Yamaha-designed mass dampers between the left and right frame rails of the unibody structure (one near the radiator core support and the other beneath the rear cargo area) to help counter the additional vibration that naturally accompanies a chassis stiffened not just by seam welding but also by the strut braces that are already a part of every 350Z chassis.
Autech also revised the Z's suspension, which has been subtly softened over the years in response to Z-car drivers who kept asking for improved ride quality. The Nismo Z's spring and damper calibration is on par with that of a first-year 350Z Track, Nissan engineers tell us.
In Japan, the Nismo Z wears 245/40R18 front and 265/35R19 rear Bridgestone Potenza RE01R tires, but the U.S. car wears less exotic RE050As, apparently a measure to accommodate our colder winters "
the Nismo 350Z has a stiffer chassis, stickier tires (in Japan), and revised suspension....so you're 'other than cosmetics' statement is false.
ummm no engine updates for the S2K?....umm F20C to F22?? i think you'd pick this up being an S2000 fan boy.
I understand that being an S2000 owner has left you clinging for the 'handling beats all' tag line. It's okay...it's quite common for owners of torqueless wonders to feel that way. So basically a overweight 'non-camber adjusting cosmetic filled car' still beat honda's uber kart machine? is that what you're saying?
Mike, sometimes you post of great value...but you're hate / disrespect for the Z is making you post some funny sh*t. get off the S2K boards and ease off the honda kool-aid.
05-07-2010, 12:30 PM
#12
Registered User
How about his to end the thread? From the link above:
"So where does the fault lie with the Z’s overheating brakes? It’s certainly not with the brake hardware itself. Comparing the diameter and thickness of the Z’s vented rotors—14.0 x 1.3-inch fronts and 13.8 x 0.8-inch rears—with those of the competition reveals that they are far from inadequate. In fact, when factoring in curb weight, the 3400-pound NISMO Z is much better endowed than a Mustang GT Track Pack or a Hyundai Genesis coupe with the optional Brembos. The NISMO is on par with a Chevy Camaro SS—whose brakes performed admirably at the latest Lighting Lap—and is only slightly less stout than the nearly indefatigable Corvette Grand Sport. Part of the reason for the relatively large rotors is that this Nissan brake hardware is used on bigger and heavier vehicles such as the Infiniti M sedans and FX SUV.
The fault cannot be pinned on the brake fluid, either. Nissan’s DOT 3–grade fluid, which is used in everything except the GT-R, has a dry boiling point of 450 degrees F. That’s identical to that of GM’s DOT 3 fluid, which is used throughout most of the General’s lineup, including Corvettes, but is not as extreme as VW/Audi’s 509-degree DOT 4 fluid. So while our test with the aftermarket brake fluid extended the capability of the Z’s brakes, it couldn’t solve the heat-buildup problem—it simply staved off the inevitable. Thus, an even more expensive and sophisticated fluid with a higher boiling point wouldn’t be a panacea, either.
Our suspicion is that Nissan got a bit greedy in its quest for today’s all-important fuel-economy numbers and boosted the Z’s aerodynamics a little too far by cutting back on the amount of air directed through the wheel wells to cool the brakes. Key takeaway: If you intend to track a Z, don’t use the base pads, upgrade the brake fluid, and be sure to install brake-cooling ducts."
...end discussion. People post about no non-sense track cars but in the end every commercial car advertised for the public has compromises...yes even a lotus elise. so ultimately what you deem as a track car you buy from a dealership is all relative...and in most cases irrelavent.
"So where does the fault lie with the Z’s overheating brakes? It’s certainly not with the brake hardware itself. Comparing the diameter and thickness of the Z’s vented rotors—14.0 x 1.3-inch fronts and 13.8 x 0.8-inch rears—with those of the competition reveals that they are far from inadequate. In fact, when factoring in curb weight, the 3400-pound NISMO Z is much better endowed than a Mustang GT Track Pack or a Hyundai Genesis coupe with the optional Brembos. The NISMO is on par with a Chevy Camaro SS—whose brakes performed admirably at the latest Lighting Lap—and is only slightly less stout than the nearly indefatigable Corvette Grand Sport. Part of the reason for the relatively large rotors is that this Nissan brake hardware is used on bigger and heavier vehicles such as the Infiniti M sedans and FX SUV.
The fault cannot be pinned on the brake fluid, either. Nissan’s DOT 3–grade fluid, which is used in everything except the GT-R, has a dry boiling point of 450 degrees F. That’s identical to that of GM’s DOT 3 fluid, which is used throughout most of the General’s lineup, including Corvettes, but is not as extreme as VW/Audi’s 509-degree DOT 4 fluid. So while our test with the aftermarket brake fluid extended the capability of the Z’s brakes, it couldn’t solve the heat-buildup problem—it simply staved off the inevitable. Thus, an even more expensive and sophisticated fluid with a higher boiling point wouldn’t be a panacea, either.
Our suspicion is that Nissan got a bit greedy in its quest for today’s all-important fuel-economy numbers and boosted the Z’s aerodynamics a little too far by cutting back on the amount of air directed through the wheel wells to cool the brakes. Key takeaway: If you intend to track a Z, don’t use the base pads, upgrade the brake fluid, and be sure to install brake-cooling ducts."
...end discussion. People post about no non-sense track cars but in the end every commercial car advertised for the public has compromises...yes even a lotus elise. so ultimately what you deem as a track car you buy from a dealership is all relative...and in most cases irrelavent.
05-07-2010, 02:10 PM
#13
Viper ACR. No compromises.
Lotus Elise/Exige CUP. No compromises.
Porsche GT3 CUP. No compromises.
Integra Type-R. No compromises.
Civic Type-R. No Compromises.
Lancer Evolution. No compromises.
WRX STI. No compromises.
M3 GTS. No compromises.
I could keep going if you like... The Nismo is marketed as a performance car, but lacks many qualities all performance cars should have. Ability for a custom alignment? Nope. Technical documents regarding performance differences between base and Nismo aero? Nope.
Changing pads and fluids is a given for any car that is tracked. That's a freebie. Hell, you'd probably want more camber than the factory range too, but no adjustment at all in the front? Smells like cost cutting. (Genesis anyone?)
Lets not forget that the M and FX with the Akebonos suffer from fade after a SINGLE 70-0 stop. Virtually every review of the respective cars noted that, and was a big motivation for Nissan to offer better pads from the factory.
Lotus Elise/Exige CUP. No compromises.
Porsche GT3 CUP. No compromises.
Integra Type-R. No compromises.
Civic Type-R. No Compromises.
Lancer Evolution. No compromises.
WRX STI. No compromises.
M3 GTS. No compromises.
I could keep going if you like... The Nismo is marketed as a performance car, but lacks many qualities all performance cars should have. Ability for a custom alignment? Nope. Technical documents regarding performance differences between base and Nismo aero? Nope.
Changing pads and fluids is a given for any car that is tracked. That's a freebie. Hell, you'd probably want more camber than the factory range too, but no adjustment at all in the front? Smells like cost cutting. (Genesis anyone?)
Lets not forget that the M and FX with the Akebonos suffer from fade after a SINGLE 70-0 stop. Virtually every review of the respective cars noted that, and was a big motivation for Nissan to offer better pads from the factory.
Last edited by Mike; 05-07-2010 at 02:17 PM.
05-07-2010, 02:32 PM
#14
Registered User
Viper ACR. No compromises.
Lotus Elise/Exige CUP. No compromises.
Porsche GT3 CUP. No compromises.
Integra Type-R. No compromises.
Civic Type-R. No Compromises.
Lancer Evolution. No compromises.
WRX STI. No compromises.
M3 GTS. No compromises.
I could keep going if you like... The Nismo is marketed as a performance car, but lacks many qualities all performance cars should have. Ability for a custom alignment? Nope. Technical documents regarding performance differences between base and Nismo aero? Nope.
Changing pads and fluids is a given for any car that is tracked. That's a freebie. Hell, you'd probably want more camber than the factory range too, but no adjustment at all in the front? Smells like cost cutting. (Genesis anyone?)
Lets not forget that the M and FX with the Akebonos suffer from fade after a SINGLE 70-0 stop. Virtually every review of the respective cars noted that, and was a big motivation for Nissan to offer better pads from the factory.
Lotus Elise/Exige CUP. No compromises.
Porsche GT3 CUP. No compromises.
Integra Type-R. No compromises.
Civic Type-R. No Compromises.
Lancer Evolution. No compromises.
WRX STI. No compromises.
M3 GTS. No compromises.
I could keep going if you like... The Nismo is marketed as a performance car, but lacks many qualities all performance cars should have. Ability for a custom alignment? Nope. Technical documents regarding performance differences between base and Nismo aero? Nope.
Changing pads and fluids is a given for any car that is tracked. That's a freebie. Hell, you'd probably want more camber than the factory range too, but no adjustment at all in the front? Smells like cost cutting. (Genesis anyone?)
Lets not forget that the M and FX with the Akebonos suffer from fade after a SINGLE 70-0 stop. Virtually every review of the respective cars noted that, and was a big motivation for Nissan to offer better pads from the factory.
first of all...no matter how tuned a FWD car is, it will always be prone to under steer. you cannot tell me that the same axle used to propel AND steer the car will have it's limits. no matter how hard core an EVO is...there is cost cutting and compromises in their design as well especially the more recent ones (XIII, IX, and X). Many Evo purits today still contend that the V, VI, and VII were more hardcore...again relative.
oh well...at the end of the day you're still going to think nissans aren't track worthy and i'm going to think that S2K guys are only second to bimmerphiles when it comes to fanboism....and life goes on...LOL.
05-07-2010, 03:10 PM
#15
OT.
Lets just go by the numbers. I see more 240's and GT-R's at the track than I do 350Z's. In fact, I see more 240/260/280z's at the track than I do 350z's. I wonder why that is, given you can get a 350z into full track form for under 20k easily.
Also, you can't possibly be telling me that a CT-R isn't a no-compromise car because of its drivetrain layout. The current CT-R is quicker around many tracks than a base model s2k.
You're local. You've tracked. What would it cost to get a Z to lap BW 13CW under 2:00? What about a Nismo 370z? How much would it cost?
Back on topic, because you keep veering off of the original topic: Brakes. The Akebonos were intended to be a mass marketed part, similar to the FM platform. As such, the system is compromised.
Lets just go by the numbers. I see more 240's and GT-R's at the track than I do 350Z's. In fact, I see more 240/260/280z's at the track than I do 350z's. I wonder why that is, given you can get a 350z into full track form for under 20k easily.
Also, you can't possibly be telling me that a CT-R isn't a no-compromise car because of its drivetrain layout. The current CT-R is quicker around many tracks than a base model s2k.
You're local. You've tracked. What would it cost to get a Z to lap BW 13CW under 2:00? What about a Nismo 370z? How much would it cost?
Back on topic, because you keep veering off of the original topic: Brakes. The Akebonos were intended to be a mass marketed part, similar to the FM platform. As such, the system is compromised.