Choosing the right coilovers
05-19-2016, 12:52 AM
#136
For what it's worth, Konis are cheap, carry a lifetime warranty, carry TUV/ISO certifications, and can be custom valved by a huge number of race shops in the US. If you can find springs that suit your preference, Konis will be as good or bad as your (custom) valving. And that will be as good or bad as the shop you choose. Ground Control might be able to help you out with custom spring choices. They've been very helpful to me for past suspension projects.
I was planning to go this route and had similar considerations as in this thread. But when I ran the Koni/Swift off-the-shelf products, I really didn't have any complaints, so I just stuck with that.
I was planning to go this route and had similar considerations as in this thread. But when I ran the Koni/Swift off-the-shelf products, I really didn't have any complaints, so I just stuck with that.
05-19-2016, 03:19 PM
#137
From Far North Racing:
"I have a love-hate relationship with Koni. Love, because Koni makes more production-car fitments than anybody, the performance of their shocks is reasonable, and they have a ****. Hate, because Koni won't let anybody service their shocks except Koni and a couple of privileged few rebuilders".
Please define "huge number".
"I have a love-hate relationship with Koni. Love, because Koni makes more production-car fitments than anybody, the performance of their shocks is reasonable, and they have a ****. Hate, because Koni won't let anybody service their shocks except Koni and a couple of privileged few rebuilders".
Please define "huge number".
05-19-2016, 08:09 PM
#138
Truechoice Koni Racing Services
^ That seems to be the go-to for custom valving of Konis. But in addition, I always hear of people with custom valved Konis. In the Subaru community, there are a couple just on the Subaru board. ...although one of them may not be around anymore. But you often hear of a local speed shop near ____ Motor Speedway that services lots of trackday cars, and they often do Koni rebuilds/custom valving. Here's one near Sonoma:
Shock Repairs and Rebuilds PSi Service, Repairs & Rebuilds : Performance Shock, Inc
Also, if you keep reading the Far North Racing site, he mentions a very short list of shocks he would recommend. Konis are the cheapest and have a fitment for most cars.
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets18.html
But I don't have a horse in this race, I'm not pushing for one shock over another. Those Aragostas look really sexy! I'm just offering another alternative.
^ That seems to be the go-to for custom valving of Konis. But in addition, I always hear of people with custom valved Konis. In the Subaru community, there are a couple just on the Subaru board. ...although one of them may not be around anymore. But you often hear of a local speed shop near ____ Motor Speedway that services lots of trackday cars, and they often do Koni rebuilds/custom valving. Here's one near Sonoma:
Shock Repairs and Rebuilds PSi Service, Repairs & Rebuilds : Performance Shock, Inc
Also, if you keep reading the Far North Racing site, he mentions a very short list of shocks he would recommend. Konis are the cheapest and have a fitment for most cars.
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets18.html
But I don't have a horse in this race, I'm not pushing for one shock over another. Those Aragostas look really sexy! I'm just offering another alternative.
05-19-2016, 08:15 PM
#139
Personally, unless I'm tracking/autocrossing or even racing on a regular basis, I'd defer damper specs to a company that knows what they're doing and has done some R&D. I can see why people would be interested in the Koni stuff but it still doesn't solve some of the issues and I've seen quite a few Koni damping curves and they're often not optimal and pretty damn firm out of the box.
05-19-2016, 10:14 PM
#140
Oh, I did indeed read the entire site. One of the better sites for learning what to look for when purchasing dampers.
And I've decided that ***** aren't necessary for me. As long as the damping is matched to the springs and suspension geometry, I'm good.
And I've decided that ***** aren't necessary for me. As long as the damping is matched to the springs and suspension geometry, I'm good.
05-20-2016, 07:19 PM
#141
Been reading that site as well. A few thoughts, as mentioned, there's some good info. I did not, and maybe I just missed it, see any of the supposedly bad plots from say a high end Tein. Some of their two ways are highly regarded. It's also very auto cross specific. Other than that, good stuff. I actually wish it'd go more into the details and the math as well as damper curve optimization for various endeavors like street and road course which has different demands.
05-20-2016, 10:22 PM
#142
Maybe you can email Dennis Grant and ask if he'll comment. I suspect he's talking about the "low-end" dampers like the Flex and Basic. And he's not talking about build quality, he's commenting on their out-of-the-box damping variability.
Read all the links in post #128. The Restackor site has a lot of pages like the Far North site and they help fill in some of the missing pieces. They even start at the beginning and discuss damper theory.
The only difference between street driving and autocross is time compression. Been there, felt that.
Read all the links in post #128. The Restackor site has a lot of pages like the Far North site and they help fill in some of the missing pieces. They even start at the beginning and discuss damper theory.
The only difference between street driving and autocross is time compression. Been there, felt that.
Last edited by slartibartfast; 05-21-2016 at 05:54 PM.
05-23-2016, 11:51 PM
#143
Ok peeps, I have them installed. Repeat. I have them installed!
After getting my Russian guest off to the office and taking my wife to the airport, I managed to start the installation rather later than planned, around 1pm. I finished by 6pm but did take on a few other tasks while I had the car on stilts. I managed to stab myself in the knee with one of the wheel studs which slowed me down quite a bit. I'm actually having issues walking but it'll heal.
Overall, the installation was pretty straightforward and not difficult. Hot and humid weather moved in just in time for the installation but I made it through.
I had two issues, one the driver's side 19mm lower shock mount bolt (turned out to be a real PITA but I got it off) and the rear spring upper rubber mounts. The Aragostas did not come with a rubber upper isolator and I reused the stock conical rubber isolator. It fits fine but when I lowered the car, I found I was at a few mm above stock height in the rear. The fronts were spot on for Aragosta's specs. So...I lowered everything in the rear 20mm, rear spring and the shock as well to keep everything within range. That worked.
So a few photos.
Ready for the installation!
Comparison of the stock Nissan (Tokico) next to the Aragosta front.
And just like that, installed up front. I did the passenger's side front/rear the the driver's side.
I don't have a digital scale but I ended up saving 5 pounds per damper up front. Here's the stock weight:
And the Aragostas.
Here's a comparison on the rears. The Aragosta was about a pound lighter.
But I lost that pound in the rear with the spring setup so I broke even. The Aragosta spring is definitely lighter but the height adjustment collar/perch adds weight.
Rears installed prior to me lowering everything another 20mm.
You do not have to remove the wheel to get to the rear adjusters. You do have to lift the car up.
Driver's side front adjuster.
Passenger's side. It sits under the wire looms, but does not touch them.
Final result! I'll most likely examine everything again tomorrow and I know things will probably settle a bit further over a week.
Few more notes. The fronts have 25 adjustment levels. The rears have 20. I currently have the fronts set at 10, the rears at 8. They came set at 8 front, 6 rear.
I do have spacers. For some reason I thought I had 20mm front, 20mm rear. I actually have 25mm rear. I discovered I had been rubbing, a bit more on the driver's rear. Managed to "peel" a thin strip of the liner which was still attached. I'm going to have to trim it back as backing down the driveway, I can hear it rubbing as the rear compresses.
The rear height adjustment was easier just taking the entire spring/perch out. I know some have issues getting the mid link bolt in and out but I did not mostly thanks to a jack and a rubber mallet
Was just easier to turn everything and make sure it was locked. I put it all back together in less time than I would have if I'd been struggling to turn the collar with the tool while everything was in the car and under spring pressure. The shock height adjustment is made by loosening the black collar and turning the shock body itself.
I took a short trip and in all honestly, the NVH has gone down if anything. The "feel" is different from the OEM IPL dampers. How, I can't say yet. There's less jounce for sure. It ain't harsh by a long shot. I took the back road for a quick run to the grocery store and it's notoriously rough and bumpy. Didn't feel any worse and actually felt a bit more settled overall with the Aragostas on their current setting.
I did get a noise which I believe was the tires. I "rotated" the Bridgestones left to right and got a very feint thumping/drumming noise which increased in frequency with speed. I think it's just coming from a wear pattern.
I did one hard acceleration run and the rear seemed a more planted. Alignment feels the same but I won't know much til I take my "route" or the gauntlet as I like to call it. I won't be able to make any real judgements til then. I'll wait a week to get an alignment.
Interestingly, looking at the current wheels and how they're spaced out, I can see how a more aggressive offset would work. My wheels actually look a bit more tucked in than they had at the stock height.
I'll post more results here as I dial things in and I'll post a full review in the "review" section.
After getting my Russian guest off to the office and taking my wife to the airport, I managed to start the installation rather later than planned, around 1pm. I finished by 6pm but did take on a few other tasks while I had the car on stilts. I managed to stab myself in the knee with one of the wheel studs which slowed me down quite a bit. I'm actually having issues walking but it'll heal.
Overall, the installation was pretty straightforward and not difficult. Hot and humid weather moved in just in time for the installation but I made it through.
I had two issues, one the driver's side 19mm lower shock mount bolt (turned out to be a real PITA but I got it off) and the rear spring upper rubber mounts. The Aragostas did not come with a rubber upper isolator and I reused the stock conical rubber isolator. It fits fine but when I lowered the car, I found I was at a few mm above stock height in the rear. The fronts were spot on for Aragosta's specs. So...I lowered everything in the rear 20mm, rear spring and the shock as well to keep everything within range. That worked.
So a few photos.
Ready for the installation!
Comparison of the stock Nissan (Tokico) next to the Aragosta front.
And just like that, installed up front. I did the passenger's side front/rear the the driver's side.
I don't have a digital scale but I ended up saving 5 pounds per damper up front. Here's the stock weight:
And the Aragostas.
Here's a comparison on the rears. The Aragosta was about a pound lighter.
But I lost that pound in the rear with the spring setup so I broke even. The Aragosta spring is definitely lighter but the height adjustment collar/perch adds weight.
Rears installed prior to me lowering everything another 20mm.
You do not have to remove the wheel to get to the rear adjusters. You do have to lift the car up.
Driver's side front adjuster.
Passenger's side. It sits under the wire looms, but does not touch them.
Final result! I'll most likely examine everything again tomorrow and I know things will probably settle a bit further over a week.
Few more notes. The fronts have 25 adjustment levels. The rears have 20. I currently have the fronts set at 10, the rears at 8. They came set at 8 front, 6 rear.
I do have spacers. For some reason I thought I had 20mm front, 20mm rear. I actually have 25mm rear. I discovered I had been rubbing, a bit more on the driver's rear. Managed to "peel" a thin strip of the liner which was still attached. I'm going to have to trim it back as backing down the driveway, I can hear it rubbing as the rear compresses.
The rear height adjustment was easier just taking the entire spring/perch out. I know some have issues getting the mid link bolt in and out but I did not mostly thanks to a jack and a rubber mallet
Was just easier to turn everything and make sure it was locked. I put it all back together in less time than I would have if I'd been struggling to turn the collar with the tool while everything was in the car and under spring pressure. The shock height adjustment is made by loosening the black collar and turning the shock body itself.I took a short trip and in all honestly, the NVH has gone down if anything. The "feel" is different from the OEM IPL dampers. How, I can't say yet. There's less jounce for sure. It ain't harsh by a long shot. I took the back road for a quick run to the grocery store and it's notoriously rough and bumpy. Didn't feel any worse and actually felt a bit more settled overall with the Aragostas on their current setting.
I did get a noise which I believe was the tires. I "rotated" the Bridgestones left to right and got a very feint thumping/drumming noise which increased in frequency with speed. I think it's just coming from a wear pattern.
I did one hard acceleration run and the rear seemed a more planted. Alignment feels the same but I won't know much til I take my "route" or the gauntlet as I like to call it. I won't be able to make any real judgements til then. I'll wait a week to get an alignment.
Interestingly, looking at the current wheels and how they're spaced out, I can see how a more aggressive offset would work. My wheels actually look a bit more tucked in than they had at the stock height.
I'll post more results here as I dial things in and I'll post a full review in the "review" section.
Last edited by Ape Factory; 07-02-2017 at 01:24 PM.
05-24-2016, 10:09 AM
#147
Shock dyno? No. I didn't want to pay $300 for him to fab adapters for my shocks. I can still look at sending the stock Tokicos somewhere. There's a possibility a shop in Austin might have a dyno too so I'll look into that.
As far as a chassis dyno, I have one of those in town too and will most likely get my car tested for a baseline at some point.
As far as a chassis dyno, I have one of those in town too and will most likely get my car tested for a baseline at some point.
05-24-2016, 06:10 PM
#148
Day two. Trimmed the rear lining on both sides. No more noises. No strange noises coming from anywhere as a matter of fact.
I've upped the dampers, 13 front, 10 rear. I could probably go to 14 front and that would make the front damping feel like the rear. I may end up backing down on the rear one notch as I'm not sure I'd want to run, on the road anyway, any firmer. The ride height is daily livable although the really large speed bumps will have to be taken a bit more slowly.
The rear end is PLANTED. I used to have tons of wheelspin, as in first three gears wheelspin. It just sticks now. Not a peep out of the traction light.
The steering is sharper and the whole car reacts more quickly in side to side transitions. Makes me wonder how sharp the pillow ball upper mount makes things. If you travel along at 15 miles an hour and just saw back and forth at the wheel, the car instantly reacts to every input and body roll is diminished. The car feels lighter.
I can't say understeer is hugely diminished from stock but we're headed in the right direction. Softening the rear may help in that regard.
I did some higher speed highway jaunts as well as some switchbacks at slower speeds to feel things out. Definitely taunter than stock but it's not harsh. Very much daily drivable without question. The rough stuff, at today's higher damping settings, was fine.
I've upped the dampers, 13 front, 10 rear. I could probably go to 14 front and that would make the front damping feel like the rear. I may end up backing down on the rear one notch as I'm not sure I'd want to run, on the road anyway, any firmer. The ride height is daily livable although the really large speed bumps will have to be taken a bit more slowly.
The rear end is PLANTED. I used to have tons of wheelspin, as in first three gears wheelspin. It just sticks now. Not a peep out of the traction light.
The steering is sharper and the whole car reacts more quickly in side to side transitions. Makes me wonder how sharp the pillow ball upper mount makes things. If you travel along at 15 miles an hour and just saw back and forth at the wheel, the car instantly reacts to every input and body roll is diminished. The car feels lighter.
I can't say understeer is hugely diminished from stock but we're headed in the right direction. Softening the rear may help in that regard.
I did some higher speed highway jaunts as well as some switchbacks at slower speeds to feel things out. Definitely taunter than stock but it's not harsh. Very much daily drivable without question. The rough stuff, at today's higher damping settings, was fine.
05-25-2016, 12:16 AM
#150
Yep, as of right now I wouldn't touch the stock bars. We'll see after I've had them for a while. Once I get a new tire/wheel package, I'll most likely go with a Torsen rear diff to replace the viscous LSD that's in there now. And as long as I can get my alignment in spec, I'll leave the rest of the suspension alone.