Graphite37

Hi all. I am scratching out an eventual game plan to upgrade the Bose sedan system. I am wondering what people have done as far as door woofer replacements without downsizing to 6.5.

While contemplating between replacing the parcel shelf subwoofer vs installing a box, I ran across these.

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_130TSZ...S2.html?tp=111

I'm now wondering if they could be a viable candidate for door woofer replacements with some sound treatment to the doors. With minimal initial cost/hastle, ease of incremental expansion and overall SQ being the main objectives. Not willing to go to 6.5" and trade kick drum punch up front.

Pros:
·2Ω like factory woofers.
·Insane freq. response. 20-3800 Hz. Fill in anywhere needed.
·When used free air the power handling drops to 75~100W.(Meaning stock wiring may be usable and picked up between HU and Bose amp for a small 2ch amp 50w RMS?)
Output from amp >Mini DSP/Audio Control 2ch DSP > stock speaker wires from Bose amp out? Bypassing the factory amp/eq on those 2 channels.) DSP between the amp and woofers for say 60~200/300Hz (even way beyond) low and hi pass/EQ to integrate with otherwise stock or any other setup and a sealed 10" in the trunk doing the heavy lifting.
·If above wiring situation is useable it may allow for a more incremental upgrade path if later desired? Theoretically still be able to replace or amp/dsp all the other door/dash speakers from a small 5 ch setup if the tweeters and midwoofers remain wired like factory. Still using stock wiring going to the speakers if amp is small enough.
· Hi Res certified if that means anything to people. My hopes being emphasis on bass punch, texture and quality. Part of the reason for the freq response.

Cons:
·Still somewhat expensive solution at 250 a driver X 2 plus needed gear. Though may be worth it if exceptional SQ and ease of integration/expandability.
Some money can be saved if willing to go with a used 2ch amp/DSP.
·Not so stellar sensitivity at 74~80dB according to Crutchfield. Not an issue depending on what wattage the stock wiring can handle. I'm guessing DSP can only do so much on this front of integration though.
·Mounting depth questionable at 3 3/16". Though an adaptor would likely have to be made anyway. Leaving the question more to cone/doorcard clearance.
·No idea how the rest of the stock drivers would respond to a 5 channel amp/DSP is added to them later. Might limit incremental expansion idea. I'm assuming 20-25 watt amp with gain properly set should be safe according to approximated specs floating in this forum. Taking care of the stock requirements and some aftermarket components if desired. DSP taking care of integration and SQ, still leaving me open to changing mids and tweeters independently if ever so chosen.

I think it could be an extremely flexible option but wanted to see what some of you thought.

RA081224

I've never been a fan of Pioneer speakers, but that's my preference. I'm assuming that you're not in favor of replacing the Bose amps then? If that's the case, I understand your wanting to keep the impedance at 2 ohm or thereabouts. The Bose amps are nowhere near high current designs and will not push a higher impedance driver effectively. Ironically, I tried several 10.5" door woofers after I gutted my system and with aftermarket amps, the stock Bose door woofer wasn't that bad of a speaker. The shortcomings of the Bose system in the doors is not bass, its upper mid's and tweeter. The single most important question I recommend every audio enthusiast ask themselves is what are you honestly wanting from your system? Have specific goals in mind and use these to generate a game plan. How far you go down this rabbit hold will depend on the answer to this question

Graphite37

Thanks for the reply, glad I caught someone with experience gutting the whole system.

I agree, the Bose system is far from bad and so far does everything pretty well. Other then the known treble issue I don't have anything against the system. (Tinnitus makes this all the more apparent!) After following milosz Bose Sedan Analysis it confirmed most of what my ears are picking up and gave solid evidence/data of what the stock system is up to.

Overall I am looking for quality, musicality, neutrality, fidelity, imaging/staging and simplicity/ease of upgrading in stages. I'd like to keep 10s in the doors.

First I would like to amp/dsp the stock speakers and possibly convert the front doors to true 3 way to see where I land. I'm not sure if I should even worry about the rears at all or focus on a front stage, 3 way. I think the majority of what I don't like is being applied in the Bose amp/DSP and crossover for tweeters/squawkers. I am fairly confident this alone would most likely be more then enough for a daily but I would like to leave myself open for incremental upgrades if desired.

Though not abused as best as I can tell, (older owners, gospel and classical saved to HDD when I purchased) my drivers do have 140k miles on them and I'd like to get some ideas for replacement if ever needed.

I know amping opens up options for driver impedance but I was seeing it from the angle of 2Ω driver replacing 2Ω driver at similar wattage may mean I won't have to run new wires and factory harness may be able to handle the juice. That Pioneers power handling drops to about 100w in free air setup. Im guessing 50-75w should be enough without turning factory wiring to spaghetti. My understanding is Bose 10" doors are seeing around 50w from the Bose amp anyway.

If I were to amp the door woofers with a 2ch, I could power the rest with a 5ch if I did keep the tweeters and mids wired in series.

I only have experience with Pioneer HT AVRs so I cant speak to speaker performance. I saw the frequency response and power requirements and thought it could integrate well with a stock system(can set the crossover to almost anything you want.) or be building blocks in the future and may not destroy doors like a more traditional 10" subwoofer would.

sobeIPL

Dynaudio Estotec are great and I believe the the entire 3 way components will fit in the car. The Volvo Dynaudio woofers are great and they are shallow mount and will fit if you are going active. Super duper cheap too. Look on eBay you can get them for peanuts. Buddy of mine built a SQ Astro van (show SQ car) and ran all sorts of Volvo dyns, sounded insane.

Graphite37

Hey thank you. I will look into those for sure. SQ is always my #1 goal closely followed by sensible budget so they may be an option.

RA081224

Well, to be perfectly honest, I'm no great fan of the Bose system for my needs. Played softly it's pretty flat and has fair staging. However, turn up the volume to any degree and it becomes unbalanced and has the staging of a brick wall; the system just isn't designed to play at reference levels. Particularly, problematic are the mids and highs as they become muddy in the attempt to project. When I first upgraded the amps in the car (with the stock speakers) the effect was far from musical. This is why I was so surprised that the door woofers actually worked well with an aftermarket setup.; granted there fairly locked down with both a low pass and high pass DSP filter but they do provide a satisfying thump in the door panel. I'm using Scanspeak Revelator mids and a soft dome tweeter for the rest of the door. It took weeks of futzing to get the crossover points where I liked them

Choosing speakers is a difficult task as they sound different in different vehicles and under different circumstances. A lot of people choose drivers based on paper specs. I let my ear be the decider. I was blessed with fairly flat hearing up to 17K or so (probably less now that I'm getting older) but have a bit of a dip in the upper midrange and below 70Hz so my eq systems tend to compensate for those. I suggest going to sound off competitions and ask for demos of the systems that sound good to you. Take notes of the sound characteristics (tone, resonance points, booming and beaming) especially noting anything that sounds annoying both at low and high volumes. I'm betting you fall in love with the drivers outside your budget but that's life! Choosing everything in 2 ohm will let them get along better with the stock amps along the way and any good aftermarket amp will handle 2 ohms easily

Upgrading in stages is how I went about it Unfortunately it wasn't the cheapest route as I re-did things over time as I discovered better combinations and techniques.

Graphite37

I agree with all points. Especially the volume doing weird things to imaging and definition. Especially noticable on any music with decent gain/saturation or an airy acoustic over a gain saturated instrument.

Some extra clean volume and sense of space would be excellent. I've had some headphones that make the Bose seem "in your skull" by comparison.

I've had some luck with a Para EQ app when streaming Bluetooth. It only does so much but I was able to dial back some harshness in the highs, mud in the lows and lift up and unfold the vocals a bit.

Oh I know how auditioning and picking drivers can go. I've been a guitarist for the better part of 20 years and tumbled down the boutique tube amp hole long ago lol. Thank heavens rack emulators and studio monitors can do so much now. Unfortunately I think my chances of auditioning a local G37 with a fully redone system are slim. Let alone several different setups.

Listening to different drivers is always an excellent idea but as you said, the same driver will sound totally different in another door/vehicle

So in your experience you would not advise re amping the stock drivers? You were still relying on the Bose for DSP/crossovers initially correct?

I am heavily considering the Alpine PXE-0850X or something like it as the heart of the system. 12 ch DSP, 8 of the channels are powered 25w RMS. I figure it could power everything stock besides the 10" woofers and maybe some aftermarket options later.

On a side note. Did you go to a true 3 way set up in the front? (Running tweets on own ch.) Did you do anything with the dash speaker?

RA081224

You got farther than I did trying to tune the stock system. I never could get clear mids and highs at volume until I replaced the drivers.

Bummer, they were all over San Jose, CA when I lived there.

For the sake of spreading out your expense and going step-by-step, upgrading the amps on stock drivers works as long as your prepared for disappointment. In retrospect I think the amps-first approach makes more sense than a drivers-first model. The only reason I chose the drivers first is because I had a fantastic set of mids, tweets and subs from a previous build. I was in the middle of a few other projects and the interior of the car was gutted already so it made sense to re-wire the chassis, install the sound deadener and install the new speakers. The amps followed in about three weeks

Its good you're thinking ahead. Amp/DSP selections are very personal ones, and I don't usually "argue" these points. I've heard winning systems will all major players of higher end equipment, so I conclude its not so much the equipment as it is the installation/tuning and system design. Go with what you know and what sounds good to you.

Not entirely, given the number of channels the car requires (Coupe has three in the door, mids in the rear seat, a woofer in the rear shelf and a sub) you'd need six stereo channels which is more amp than I wanted to dedicate room for. In the end, I have a hybrid system using a four-channel amp for the door tweeter and the rear shelf tweeters, the door mids and the rear seat mids and a two channel for the door woofer and the rear shelf woofer plus a dedicated sub amp. I still have custom crossovers between the door tweeters and mid-range but a DSP forms the crossover for everything else.

and yes, my wife considers me completely insane

Graphite37

Yeah I have no brand loyalties and am just after results and as much of an all in one solution as possible.

I agree that it lies more in the set up then company. In reality a majority of the boards, chips and other components probably come from the same places. It's more in how the software and setup gets them to interact.

A musicians analogy would be plugging into your favorite guitarists rig and realizing the tone is actually in the hands. The humans acting as the software controlling interaction between components.

Thats why I'm contemplating leaving the rears alone and focusing on turning the fronts to 3 way plus dash. Something like the Alpine could handle this in one box.
I think it would be pretty choice if I could get away with it and a monoblock to run everything. Maybe a 2ch for the door woofers.

Otherwise I'm looking at something like a JL TWK 88 and 2 4ch amps or an 8ch amp plus a 2ch for door woofers. I'm also hoping that amping and DSP at once will make the stockers liveable with time alignment and crossovers for tweeters and mids.

The Para EQ is a total bandaid but did more then I expected. Boosting the preamp section a little lifted the veil somewhat and gave a little more body and impact to the bass. Sweeping with a sharp Q boost helped me find some trouble spots.

Fun to play with anyway and pretty sweet I can EQ headphones, chromecast and other bluetooth speakers as well.