dillyyo

Then trust me....the systems you heard were not high end systems. Custom means nothing as I have seen many more garbage custom install than I would ever care for. find someone who knows about car audio and talks about things like, dynamics, tonality, staging, imaging etc and then listen to their system. You will never look at car audio the same again.

CrackHeadMonsta

Ok cool,

cskubis

Your "if you like distortion and altered sound" generalization is one that I've typically heard from someone who has not heard a modern high-end tube amp in a good home system. If distortion is so bad, why did the 70's gear that measures great (<0.01% THD) sound like crap?

That said, I would never use tubes in a car due to vibration & microphonics (both tube-killers) ... not to mention having to step up the voltage 40-50X to run the output tubes.

soldier9599

Yeah, I guess I was just biased having not been exposed to the real deal.

dillyyo

irst off, I have heard home tube amps and do not prefer the sound they emit. Many do and it's obviously a preference that is popular. That does not change the fact that tube pre amps and gain stages alter/color the source signal.

In respects to your example of <0.01% THD, how about you try giving me the THD+N value, which are still questionable unless measured and verified. No need to play with the industry snake oil and give figures for only harmonic measurements. Without getting into the real technical aspects (since I am limited) Tube amps alter the signal because of 1. high output impedance 2. Frequency response anomalies 3. Limited output power (clipping with nearly any transient) 4. Second harmonic distortion (debatable due to masking effects of the fundamentals)

cskubis

I have been in audio for a long time and I also am an electrical engineer, so I know the pros/cons of tube and solid-state amplification. I own both. I use both. I have built some tube preamps, and have tweaked some solid-state amps. I just disagree with your blanket statement that tubes are distortion machines, because its not so cut-and-dry. Most people I've heard say similar things are uninformed and not familiar with tube designs of the last 10 years or so. There is tube equipment that sounds like solid-state, and solid-state that sounds like tubes. In a properly-matched system, the best examples don't sound like either. You'll likely agree with me that speakers (and rooms!) are by orders of magnitude the worst offenders in the audio chain anyway, which is why I am eagerly watching the gains made in digital room correction.

One point I'll strongly disagree with you on is regarding pre-amps. Tubes don't like current but are more linear than transistors at swinging voltage, and thus are ideal in preamps, where current is minimal. I've looked at the datasheets of many transistors, op-amps, and triodes. A triode is a more linear device than either. Consequently tube circuits can be simpler and more versatile than their solid-state counterparts, and also use little to no negative feedback to measure great (which is a good thing). Its harder (and more expensive) to make a good solid-state preamp then a tube one, which is why most good/great high-end preamps are tube.

dillyyo

I basically agree with the bolded statement, but I think you need to re-read my original post. I never stated they were distortion machines. What I did say was that if you like distortion and altered sound then one might think tube amps are superior. As you have stated, not all tube amps produce excessive distortion (well made), but many do. As I stated in my last post, many factors affect the sound output from a tube amp and some are hotly debated. I think you have to take into consideration that tube amps in cars is different than in home applications. Almost all "tube" amps in car audio are actually hybrids with a tube preamp and SS amp.

As I stated previously, I am not that well educated on the engineering aspects of amplifers, so I will have to defer that to you and your knowledge base. But I have been in car audio for almost twenty years and have read, debated and absorbed alot of useful knowledge. I agree with your tube sounding like SS and vice versa and hence, why I believe that all amps can be made to sound the same, with some EQ'ing.

If this turns into a debate then I will try and hang in as much as possible, but I might have to give the "submission" signal if it starts to get too far above my head.

cskubis

No debate desired here. In fact, I have appreciated & agreed with many of your posts on car audio. You just ruffled my feathers a bit with your comment on tubes is all, which I took outside the scope of car audio. That said, I wouldn't use tubes in a car either. I imagine the Mac gear mentioned earlier sticks close to form and provides that "classic" tube sound they are known for which, while "nice", is not my preference either.

CrackHeadMonsta

Cool to have my audiofile brother's here

Well I tell you what, I heard a tube setup.
The best sounding system. I thought I was in the room with the musicians.

Now I don't know what it's like while in everyday driving, hmmmm

If they were a problem, I don't think the companies would deal with building them. I don't know.

But I couldn't believe how good it sounded. It wasn't loud, it wasn't booming, wasn't sharp. Beautifully centered and full.

I remember thinkin, wow what kind of speakers are these?
He said, it's not the speakers, it's the amps.
He had the pioneer prs's with some old wide as heck us amps and a dumb kicker sub . Sealed.
I sat in his car for 15 minutes listening to jazz and rock.

UNBELIEVABLE

cskubis

I had a system that imaged pretty well in a prior car as well. Many that heard it were amazed at the imaging. For those who've never heard a system that can image, it can be a pretty "ear-opening" experience. It didn't play super loud, but I was going for quality over quantity. Its not easy to do with out-of-the box stuff, as what they sell is typically compromised somewhere (like cheap caps in sub-optimal crossovers). Imaging is more speaker & "set up" related than what amp is being used. You realy have to EQ your frequency response and pay attention to speaker directivity as well. For that particular system I put in some focal tweeters mounted like the tweeters in the G (but aimed @ driver), morel mids in the doors, various sub experiments we designed & built over the years, an outboard tweaked crossover, an EQ, dedicated amplification for each driver (maybe ~1kW of carver power), and measurement/test equipment.

Of course after I did this system I discovered high-end home audio and let car audio slide, to my bank account's detriment.

cskubis

I was looking for an old thesis by Daniel Cheever and found it at this website which coincidently does tube audio for the car: http://www.milbert.com/articles. His paper makes for a good read.

Lots of other good stuff there about tubes.

dillyyo

Maybe this is a bad analogy, but I think tubes (not all) to SS is like movies on film and digital. The digital looks on the screen how the eyes would see it in real life. The film makes it look softer, but still appeasing. Even though tubes produce 2nd order harmonics, they tend to be more pleasing than the SS 3rd order harmonics. So its no wonder that so many people like that "tube" sound.