Best Sub/Amp Brands
05-21-2008, 12:56 AM
#46
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The post on this site are not based on any real .....um understanding of sub and amp technology. As someone who has worked in the audio industry for 32 years it never ceases to amaze me the uninformed have opinions based on brand prejudice. I had two of these and there better than two of those. BASED ON WHAT? Justification for your purchase is not justification for everyone elses on the forum. Here's some info you should follow in purchasing a sub and amp for you car:
1. The G37 or G35 has a very small area for subs if you want to maintain any trunk space. Look for woofers that work well in that application. Many of the woofers mentioned on the forum will do that. Also, audio products are like cars only handful are really good - great products exist.
2. The application is the most important aspect to the purchase. If you ultimate goal is output, port it. If you need to maintain space, small drivers in the 8 to 10 inch area require modest sized enclosure in the .8 to 1.6 cubic foot respectively. 12'S get in the 2 cube to 3 cube ported. THAS IS A BIG FRIGGIN BOX. Generally speaking sealed enclosures are sonically more accurate and have more detail with less output. There are 12's that work in as little as on cubic foot. Multiple small driver (2 8"s or 2 10's) may outperform a single super woofer in a smaller enclosre and require less amplifier. Surface area, driver excursion are some of the factors to help make decisions. Everytime you double the surface area (roughly) you pick up 3 db of output. That's like going from 250 watts to 500 watts.
3. Amplifier choice to drive the system is critical. In spite of silly power claims in the case of car amps more is not better and usually not real. Amplifier ratings of 14.4 volts are useless. You car would have to be hit by lightening, running down hill and a have a power line draped over the hood to see 14.4 volts on a regular basis. The proper spec is 12.6 volts (roughly a battey with a full charge).
4. Consider the charging sytem. 1 killowatt will require 90 amps of current to drive it. It's called Ohms Law not Ohms theory. This can put a huge strain on the charging system. Also, amplifier settings are critical to the sound quality, xover points to integrate with high frequency transducers, subsonic filter to properly roll of woofers and gain settings (output setting) to keep the amp from clipping. Many great product have sounded horrible due to poor set-up.
5. Finally where you buy it is just as important. There are three types of Car Audio Retailers. The A type, B type and C the recipe for disaster. Avoid the internet for quality purchases of high end products, many are not authorized and have no access to service. Generally with most internet purchses if you blow it you can throw it out. Crutchfield would be an example of a reputable Internet site. When purchasing equipment make sure of the following:
a. The dealer knows the car and it's electrical syetem. Ask questions your spending alot of money. You not driving an 81 Cutlass.
b. Most good dealer will have word of mouth within a given community. Most keep a portfolio of high end installs for that purpose.
c. Listen to what your buying. Subjectivity in audio is a misnomer. When you a hear a saxophone you would never confuses it for a Tuba.
d. Visit multiple dealers even if a little travel is necessary. Shop price like any other business you can generally get a deal. But also, consider expertise if one dealer is more talented at install it may worth the extra money.
1. The G37 or G35 has a very small area for subs if you want to maintain any trunk space. Look for woofers that work well in that application. Many of the woofers mentioned on the forum will do that. Also, audio products are like cars only handful are really good - great products exist.
2. The application is the most important aspect to the purchase. If you ultimate goal is output, port it. If you need to maintain space, small drivers in the 8 to 10 inch area require modest sized enclosure in the .8 to 1.6 cubic foot respectively. 12'S get in the 2 cube to 3 cube ported. THAS IS A BIG FRIGGIN BOX. Generally speaking sealed enclosures are sonically more accurate and have more detail with less output. There are 12's that work in as little as on cubic foot. Multiple small driver (2 8"s or 2 10's) may outperform a single super woofer in a smaller enclosre and require less amplifier. Surface area, driver excursion are some of the factors to help make decisions. Everytime you double the surface area (roughly) you pick up 3 db of output. That's like going from 250 watts to 500 watts.
3. Amplifier choice to drive the system is critical. In spite of silly power claims in the case of car amps more is not better and usually not real. Amplifier ratings of 14.4 volts are useless. You car would have to be hit by lightening, running down hill and a have a power line draped over the hood to see 14.4 volts on a regular basis. The proper spec is 12.6 volts (roughly a battey with a full charge).
4. Consider the charging sytem. 1 killowatt will require 90 amps of current to drive it. It's called Ohms Law not Ohms theory. This can put a huge strain on the charging system. Also, amplifier settings are critical to the sound quality, xover points to integrate with high frequency transducers, subsonic filter to properly roll of woofers and gain settings (output setting) to keep the amp from clipping. Many great product have sounded horrible due to poor set-up.
5. Finally where you buy it is just as important. There are three types of Car Audio Retailers. The A type, B type and C the recipe for disaster. Avoid the internet for quality purchases of high end products, many are not authorized and have no access to service. Generally with most internet purchses if you blow it you can throw it out. Crutchfield would be an example of a reputable Internet site. When purchasing equipment make sure of the following:
a. The dealer knows the car and it's electrical syetem. Ask questions your spending alot of money. You not driving an 81 Cutlass.
b. Most good dealer will have word of mouth within a given community. Most keep a portfolio of high end installs for that purpose.
c. Listen to what your buying. Subjectivity in audio is a misnomer. When you a hear a saxophone you would never confuses it for a Tuba.
d. Visit multiple dealers even if a little travel is necessary. Shop price like any other business you can generally get a deal. But also, consider expertise if one dealer is more talented at install it may worth the extra money.
I agree with most of what you stated except the following:
1000 watt or 90 amp system is not a huge tax on an electrical system, from my experience. It's not like you are ever really seeing that current draw on a consistant basis anyways. Sounds like the snake oil the cap guys use to spew back in the day
How you make an assessment that subjectivenss in audio is a misnomer, befuddles me. Unless you are sitting in a studio when the music is being recorded and have an intimate refernce in mind, the material is completely subjective as the same instruments can sound different in different mediums at different points in times. Ulitmately it comes down to "what sounds good to you". Besides, who's to say what a trumpet sounds like to me or what the color red looks like to me?! This is well accepted premise in the neuro/psycho sciences.
Good points for the most part though.
05-22-2008, 09:27 AM
#47
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Reality
[QUOTE=dillyyo;2339224]I agree with most of what you stated except the following:
1000 watt or 90 amp system is not a huge tax on an electrical system, from my experience. It's not like you are ever really seeing that current draw on a consistant basis anyways. Sounds like the snake oil the cap guys use to spew back in the day
How you make an assessment that subjectivenss in audio is a misnomer, befuddles me. Unless you are sitting in a studio when the music is being recorded and have an intimate refernce in mind, the material is completely subjective as the same instruments can sound different in different mediums at different points in times. Ulitmately it comes down to "what sounds good to you". Besides, who's to say what a trumpet sounds like to me or what the color red looks like to me?! This is well accepted premise in the neuro/psycho sciences.
Curent draw is current draw and why the operational charecterisics of the amp may not always see the demand you speak of there are enourmous peak in Sub bass that DO make demands on electrical systems. If you are running a High Frequency amplifier there is also constant draw there. Also the nature of todays recording are more demanding than analog, the peaks are bigger due to dynamic range. Also, compressed recording have less transition dynamically (higher dynamic range) and and demand more from the amplifiers. Turn on the air conditioning, you lights, etc and there is a load all the time. The battery life of the sytem as a minimum will be reduced. I have first hand knowledge and have worked for companies were measurements are conducted on the load and it's effect on the vehicle. This is part of the development process not parking lot chatter. Competitive cars systems add batteries and caps to deal with these draws. Tying down a daily driver with is kind of stuff is counter productive and causes havoc on warranties and can add 300 pounds of weight to a car. A 75 pound super woofer. 150 pound 1/12 MDF and two batteries.........see where I am going.
The point on subjectivity I am speaking of is not recording related. Agreed reference for a studio recording would deem "you would have to be there" and playback in a different area would (car, living room) would add "sonic seasoning" based on room chareteristics. My point is simpler. Try live music. You and I are sitting in a room and some one is playing an acoustic guitar. Would it sound like, a Cello? Let's take it on step further a Martin D-18 is strummed, the a Gibson Swallow Tail then a Ovation. All guitars all have different tonally qualities. What ever anatomical (auditory) difference we might have our reference would be very similar. What you like is another question. All subjective preference (nuero physcho sciences) are based on personal habits and and what you have expeirenced. You like (hypothetically) Rap and I like the blues.
All great violinist would kill to own a Stradavarious. The may play the same notes, what changes is how they strum the bow, personal feel for the piece. The instrument is always the same. Again, you have to have reference for whats accurate. A Strad's a Strad.
OEM systems are full of inexpensive drivers (average cost $5 to $10) and tuning is done through the amplifier and signal processing that has become a cheap commodity, this an attempt to make mediocre better by science.The drivers have limited frequnecy range and dynamics but tuning gives you the most out very little. Ex. The Bose sytems in my G37. Our company had built a M45 for Infiniti and lost the bid beacuse of cost. We used far superior drivers and one the best loudspeaker designers (Joe D'appolito) tune and design the system. Trust me it was way better than what is provided. If your reference is "run of the mill" and I am not saying yours is, then OEM would be what you like, "it's good enough." That's not subjectivity it's just the what you are used to.
1000 watt or 90 amp system is not a huge tax on an electrical system, from my experience. It's not like you are ever really seeing that current draw on a consistant basis anyways. Sounds like the snake oil the cap guys use to spew back in the day
How you make an assessment that subjectivenss in audio is a misnomer, befuddles me. Unless you are sitting in a studio when the music is being recorded and have an intimate refernce in mind, the material is completely subjective as the same instruments can sound different in different mediums at different points in times. Ulitmately it comes down to "what sounds good to you". Besides, who's to say what a trumpet sounds like to me or what the color red looks like to me?! This is well accepted premise in the neuro/psycho sciences.
Curent draw is current draw and why the operational charecterisics of the amp may not always see the demand you speak of there are enourmous peak in Sub bass that DO make demands on electrical systems. If you are running a High Frequency amplifier there is also constant draw there. Also the nature of todays recording are more demanding than analog, the peaks are bigger due to dynamic range. Also, compressed recording have less transition dynamically (higher dynamic range) and and demand more from the amplifiers. Turn on the air conditioning, you lights, etc and there is a load all the time. The battery life of the sytem as a minimum will be reduced. I have first hand knowledge and have worked for companies were measurements are conducted on the load and it's effect on the vehicle. This is part of the development process not parking lot chatter. Competitive cars systems add batteries and caps to deal with these draws. Tying down a daily driver with is kind of stuff is counter productive and causes havoc on warranties and can add 300 pounds of weight to a car. A 75 pound super woofer. 150 pound 1/12 MDF and two batteries.........see where I am going.
The point on subjectivity I am speaking of is not recording related. Agreed reference for a studio recording would deem "you would have to be there" and playback in a different area would (car, living room) would add "sonic seasoning" based on room chareteristics. My point is simpler. Try live music. You and I are sitting in a room and some one is playing an acoustic guitar. Would it sound like, a Cello? Let's take it on step further a Martin D-18 is strummed, the a Gibson Swallow Tail then a Ovation. All guitars all have different tonally qualities. What ever anatomical (auditory) difference we might have our reference would be very similar. What you like is another question. All subjective preference (nuero physcho sciences) are based on personal habits and and what you have expeirenced. You like (hypothetically) Rap and I like the blues.
All great violinist would kill to own a Stradavarious. The may play the same notes, what changes is how they strum the bow, personal feel for the piece. The instrument is always the same. Again, you have to have reference for whats accurate. A Strad's a Strad.
OEM systems are full of inexpensive drivers (average cost $5 to $10) and tuning is done through the amplifier and signal processing that has become a cheap commodity, this an attempt to make mediocre better by science.The drivers have limited frequnecy range and dynamics but tuning gives you the most out very little. Ex. The Bose sytems in my G37. Our company had built a M45 for Infiniti and lost the bid beacuse of cost. We used far superior drivers and one the best loudspeaker designers (Joe D'appolito) tune and design the system. Trust me it was way better than what is provided. If your reference is "run of the mill" and I am not saying yours is, then OEM would be what you like, "it's good enough." That's not subjectivity it's just the what you are used to.
Last edited by daquilini; 05-22-2008 at 04:22 PM.
05-23-2008, 01:15 AM
#48
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[QUOTE=daquilini;2339997]
We can agree to disagree on some points. Caps have always been and always will be nonsense, IMHO. As I am sure you know, this has been debated and beat to death for years in the car audio field, so I won't even get into that again. The fact that music is more compressed and less dynamic nowadays is true, but negligable in my eyes. Any one competing that is running a multi kilowatt systems have and do use AC-DC external power supply. I have seen and heard many systems over the years, that were significant and they never had to use caps.
As far as drivers and subjectivity, I have yet to hear any driver, whether Kraco, boss, pyramid, Diamonds, kickers, Dyns, Morels that play an acoustic guitar and sounded like a cello. I have always lived and believed the mantra that it's 90% install and 10% equipment. I have heard top of the line Focals in a car that sounded like azz because of the install. Then I have heard mid class infinity's that sounded great. I agree about the tonal signitures of various brands of instruments and this is why I do like to have higher end equipment, because better speakers usually tend to replicate this signitures better than cheap speakers. Although, more expensive does not always mean better.There is a point of diminishing returns and at this point it comes to what ones preference is.
As before, I get your premise, just not in complete agreement!
I agree with most of what you stated except the following:
1000 watt or 90 amp system is not a huge tax on an electrical system, from my experience. It's not like you are ever really seeing that current draw on a consistant basis anyways. Sounds like the snake oil the cap guys use to spew back in the day
How you make an assessment that subjectivenss in audio is a misnomer, befuddles me. Unless you are sitting in a studio when the music is being recorded and have an intimate refernce in mind, the material is completely subjective as the same instruments can sound different in different mediums at different points in times. Ulitmately it comes down to "what sounds good to you". Besides, who's to say what a trumpet sounds like to me or what the color red looks like to me?! This is well accepted premise in the neuro/psycho sciences.
Curent draw is current draw and why the operational charecterisics of the amp may not always see the demand you speak of there are enourmous peak in Sub bass that DO make demands on electrical systems. If you are running a High Frequency amplifier there is also constant draw there. Also the nature of todays recording are more demanding than analog, the peaks are bigger due to dynamic range. Also, compressed recording have less transition dynamically (higher dynamic range) and and demand more from the amplifiers. Turn on the air conditioning, you lights, etc and there is a load all the time. The battery life of the sytem as a minimum will be reduced. I have first hand knowledge and have worked for companies were measurements are conducted on the load and it's effect on the vehicle. This is part of the development process not parking lot chatter. Competitive cars systems add batteries and caps to deal with these draws. Tying down a daily driver with is kind of stuff is counter productive and causes havoc on warranties and can add 300 pounds of weight to a car. A 75 pound super woofer. 150 pound 1/12 MDF and two batteries.........see where I am going.
The point on subjectivity I am speaking of is not recording related. Agreed reference for a studio recording would deem "you would have to be there" and playback in a different area would (car, living room) would add "sonic seasoning" based on room chareteristics. My point is simpler. Try live music. You and I are sitting in a room and some one is playing an acoustic guitar. Would it sound like, a Cello? Let's take it on step further a Martin D-18 is strummed, the a Gibson Swallow Tail then a Ovation. All guitars all have different tonally qualities. What ever anatomical (auditory) difference we might have our reference would be very similar. What you like is another question. All subjective preference (nuero physcho sciences) are based on personal habits and and what you have expeirenced. You like (hypothetically) Rap and I like the blues.
All great violinist would kill to own a Stradavarious. The may play the same notes, what changes is how they strum the bow, personal feel for the piece. The instrument is always the same. Again, you have to have reference for whats accurate. A Strad's a Strad.
OEM systems are full of inexpensive drivers (average cost $5 to $10) and tuning is done through the amplifier and signal processing that has become a cheap commodity, this an attempt to make mediocre better by science.The drivers have limited frequnecy range and dynamics but tuning gives you the most out very little. Ex. The Bose sytems in my G37. Our company had built a M45 for Infiniti and lost the bid beacuse of cost. We used far superior drivers and one the best loudspeaker designers (Joe D'appolito) tune and design the system. Trust me it was way better than what is provided. If your reference is "run of the mill" and I am not saying yours is, then OEM would be what you like, "it's good enough." That's not subjectivity it's just the what you are used to.
1000 watt or 90 amp system is not a huge tax on an electrical system, from my experience. It's not like you are ever really seeing that current draw on a consistant basis anyways. Sounds like the snake oil the cap guys use to spew back in the day
How you make an assessment that subjectivenss in audio is a misnomer, befuddles me. Unless you are sitting in a studio when the music is being recorded and have an intimate refernce in mind, the material is completely subjective as the same instruments can sound different in different mediums at different points in times. Ulitmately it comes down to "what sounds good to you". Besides, who's to say what a trumpet sounds like to me or what the color red looks like to me?! This is well accepted premise in the neuro/psycho sciences.
Curent draw is current draw and why the operational charecterisics of the amp may not always see the demand you speak of there are enourmous peak in Sub bass that DO make demands on electrical systems. If you are running a High Frequency amplifier there is also constant draw there. Also the nature of todays recording are more demanding than analog, the peaks are bigger due to dynamic range. Also, compressed recording have less transition dynamically (higher dynamic range) and and demand more from the amplifiers. Turn on the air conditioning, you lights, etc and there is a load all the time. The battery life of the sytem as a minimum will be reduced. I have first hand knowledge and have worked for companies were measurements are conducted on the load and it's effect on the vehicle. This is part of the development process not parking lot chatter. Competitive cars systems add batteries and caps to deal with these draws. Tying down a daily driver with is kind of stuff is counter productive and causes havoc on warranties and can add 300 pounds of weight to a car. A 75 pound super woofer. 150 pound 1/12 MDF and two batteries.........see where I am going.
The point on subjectivity I am speaking of is not recording related. Agreed reference for a studio recording would deem "you would have to be there" and playback in a different area would (car, living room) would add "sonic seasoning" based on room chareteristics. My point is simpler. Try live music. You and I are sitting in a room and some one is playing an acoustic guitar. Would it sound like, a Cello? Let's take it on step further a Martin D-18 is strummed, the a Gibson Swallow Tail then a Ovation. All guitars all have different tonally qualities. What ever anatomical (auditory) difference we might have our reference would be very similar. What you like is another question. All subjective preference (nuero physcho sciences) are based on personal habits and and what you have expeirenced. You like (hypothetically) Rap and I like the blues.
All great violinist would kill to own a Stradavarious. The may play the same notes, what changes is how they strum the bow, personal feel for the piece. The instrument is always the same. Again, you have to have reference for whats accurate. A Strad's a Strad.
OEM systems are full of inexpensive drivers (average cost $5 to $10) and tuning is done through the amplifier and signal processing that has become a cheap commodity, this an attempt to make mediocre better by science.The drivers have limited frequnecy range and dynamics but tuning gives you the most out very little. Ex. The Bose sytems in my G37. Our company had built a M45 for Infiniti and lost the bid beacuse of cost. We used far superior drivers and one the best loudspeaker designers (Joe D'appolito) tune and design the system. Trust me it was way better than what is provided. If your reference is "run of the mill" and I am not saying yours is, then OEM would be what you like, "it's good enough." That's not subjectivity it's just the what you are used to.
We can agree to disagree on some points. Caps have always been and always will be nonsense, IMHO. As I am sure you know, this has been debated and beat to death for years in the car audio field, so I won't even get into that again. The fact that music is more compressed and less dynamic nowadays is true, but negligable in my eyes. Any one competing that is running a multi kilowatt systems have and do use AC-DC external power supply. I have seen and heard many systems over the years, that were significant and they never had to use caps.
As far as drivers and subjectivity, I have yet to hear any driver, whether Kraco, boss, pyramid, Diamonds, kickers, Dyns, Morels that play an acoustic guitar and sounded like a cello. I have always lived and believed the mantra that it's 90% install and 10% equipment. I have heard top of the line Focals in a car that sounded like azz because of the install. Then I have heard mid class infinity's that sounded great. I agree about the tonal signitures of various brands of instruments and this is why I do like to have higher end equipment, because better speakers usually tend to replicate this signitures better than cheap speakers. Although, more expensive does not always mean better.There is a point of diminishing returns and at this point it comes to what ones preference is.
As before, I get your premise, just not in complete agreement!
05-23-2008, 10:24 AM
#49
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[QUOTE=dillyyo;2340712]
We can agree to disagree on some points. Caps have always been and always will be nonsense, IMHO. As I am sure you know, this has been debated and beat to death for years in the car audio field, so I won't even get into that again. The fact that music is more compressed and less dynamic nowadays is true, but negligable in my eyes. Any one competing that is running a multi kilowatt systems have and do use AC-DC external power supply. I have seen and heard many systems over the years, that were significant and they never had to use caps.
As far as drivers and subjectivity, I have yet to hear any driver, whether Kraco, boss, pyramid, Diamonds, kickers, Dyns, Morels that play an acoustic guitar and sounded like a cello. I have always lived and believed the mantra that it's 90% install and 10% equipment. I have heard top of the line Focals in a car that sounded like azz because of the install. Then I have heard mid class infinity's that sounded great. I agree about the tonal signitures of various brands of instruments and this is why I do like to have higher end equipment, because better speakers usually tend to replicate this signitures better than cheap speakers. Although, more expensive does not always mean better.There is a point of diminishing returns and at this point it comes to what ones preference is.
As before, I get your premise, just not in complete agreement!
I have enjoyed convivial the banter. However, caps are caps they load they discharge. Depending on size (charge held) just like in an amplifier there storage effect is minimal and benefit is felt over a short time. Look at it this way if you don't clip the amp and juice the electrical system, why would you need one? There is little debate as to there value except to the dealer selling them and installing them. Electrical properties of devices and there effect can be measured. There relationship is not voodo but electrical and mathematical fact.
You missed the point on todays music. Dynamic range simple stated is the difference from low level to the highest (I know you understand this). Compression actually increases dynamic range. When you play it back you expand it. So instead of 35 db to 90 db peaks you get 50 db to 90 db peaks. If you start with the higher number you need more power. The biggest peak is similar but the sarting point is significantly higher. There is a training manual JL uses for their "School of Sound" you should take a look. Dealers generally have it. It may even be on the web site. It's enlighetening. There are several good book by Vance ****ason and Joe D'appolito if you wish to learn more.
As far as competitiors are concerned, I was involed with IASCA when it started the company I worked for (as National Sales Manger for 7 years) was on of the companies that was first to support IASCA. We aslo benefitted from a marketing and of course financial stanpoint. To that end the reason SPL competitors use external power is any deficency in the charging system would cost them valuable db's for SPL. Again current draw is mathematical and electrical. We won't belabor that any longer.
To my point (guitar vs. cello) if sound were truly subjective and our hearing was radically different (subjective) we would have very different perceptions.
Back to the strad comparison. People with large degrees of experience differ far less than people with none or little. The field narrows quickly as with cars, wine, scotch. You can eat at the Golden Corral or Mortons. There several good books out there on physco/acoustics and the way we percieve sound.
As someone who has been involved in loudspeaker devolpment on a daily basis for 20 years, as people are exposed their taste change. Generally, more agreeement occurs based on that exposure.
Finally, the point we have the highest agreement on is the fact that application and install are highest priority when purchasing. That is where the "rubber meets the road." Less expensive product installed and set-up properly is way better than expensive product installed poorly. Yep, that's the point of all of this.
We can agree to disagree on some points. Caps have always been and always will be nonsense, IMHO. As I am sure you know, this has been debated and beat to death for years in the car audio field, so I won't even get into that again. The fact that music is more compressed and less dynamic nowadays is true, but negligable in my eyes. Any one competing that is running a multi kilowatt systems have and do use AC-DC external power supply. I have seen and heard many systems over the years, that were significant and they never had to use caps.
As far as drivers and subjectivity, I have yet to hear any driver, whether Kraco, boss, pyramid, Diamonds, kickers, Dyns, Morels that play an acoustic guitar and sounded like a cello. I have always lived and believed the mantra that it's 90% install and 10% equipment. I have heard top of the line Focals in a car that sounded like azz because of the install. Then I have heard mid class infinity's that sounded great. I agree about the tonal signitures of various brands of instruments and this is why I do like to have higher end equipment, because better speakers usually tend to replicate this signitures better than cheap speakers. Although, more expensive does not always mean better.There is a point of diminishing returns and at this point it comes to what ones preference is.
As before, I get your premise, just not in complete agreement!
You missed the point on todays music. Dynamic range simple stated is the difference from low level to the highest (I know you understand this). Compression actually increases dynamic range. When you play it back you expand it. So instead of 35 db to 90 db peaks you get 50 db to 90 db peaks. If you start with the higher number you need more power. The biggest peak is similar but the sarting point is significantly higher. There is a training manual JL uses for their "School of Sound" you should take a look. Dealers generally have it. It may even be on the web site. It's enlighetening. There are several good book by Vance ****ason and Joe D'appolito if you wish to learn more.
As far as competitiors are concerned, I was involed with IASCA when it started the company I worked for (as National Sales Manger for 7 years) was on of the companies that was first to support IASCA. We aslo benefitted from a marketing and of course financial stanpoint. To that end the reason SPL competitors use external power is any deficency in the charging system would cost them valuable db's for SPL. Again current draw is mathematical and electrical. We won't belabor that any longer.
To my point (guitar vs. cello) if sound were truly subjective and our hearing was radically different (subjective) we would have very different perceptions.
Back to the strad comparison. People with large degrees of experience differ far less than people with none or little. The field narrows quickly as with cars, wine, scotch. You can eat at the Golden Corral or Mortons. There several good books out there on physco/acoustics and the way we percieve sound.
As someone who has been involved in loudspeaker devolpment on a daily basis for 20 years, as people are exposed their taste change. Generally, more agreeement occurs based on that exposure.
Finally, the point we have the highest agreement on is the fact that application and install are highest priority when purchasing. That is where the "rubber meets the road." Less expensive product installed and set-up properly is way better than expensive product installed poorly. Yep, that's the point of all of this.
05-24-2008, 01:31 AM
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[QUOTE=daquilini;2340831]
I have enjoyed convivial the banter. However, caps are caps they load they discharge. Depending on size (charge held) just like in an amplifier there storage effect is minimal and benefit is felt over a short time. Look at it this way if you don't clip the amp and juice the electrical system, why would you need one? There is little debate as to there value except to the dealer selling them and installing them. Electrical properties of devices and there effect can be measured. There relationship is not voodo but electrical and mathematical fact.
You missed the point on todays music. Dynamic range simple stated is the difference from low level to the highest (I know you understand this). Compression actually increases dynamic range. When you play it back you expand it. So instead of 35 db to 90 db peaks you get 50 db to 90 db peaks. If you start with the higher number you need more power. The biggest peak is similar but the sarting point is significantly higher. There is a training manual JL uses for their "School of Sound" you should take a look. Dealers generally have it. It may even be on the web site. It's enlighetening. There are several good book by Vance ****ason and Joe D'appolito if you wish to learn more.
As far as competitiors are concerned, I was involed with IASCA when it started the company I worked for (as National Sales Manger for 7 years) was on of the companies that was first to support IASCA. We aslo benefitted from a marketing and of course financial stanpoint. To that end the reason SPL competitors use external power is any deficency in the charging system would cost them valuable db's for SPL. Again current draw is mathematical and electrical. We won't belabor that any longer.
To my point (guitar vs. cello) if sound were truly subjective and our hearing was radically different (subjective) we would have very different perceptions.
Back to the strad comparison. People with large degrees of experience differ far less than people with none or little. The field narrows quickly as with cars, wine, scotch. You can eat at the Golden Corral or Mortons. There several good books out there on physco/acoustics and the way we percieve sound.
As someone who has been involved in loudspeaker devolpment on a daily basis for 20 years, as people are exposed their taste change. Generally, more agreeement occurs based on that exposure.
Finally, the point we have the highest agreement on is the fact that application and install are highest priority when purchasing. That is where the "rubber meets the road." Less expensive product installed and set-up properly is way better than expensive product installed poorly. Yep, that's the point of all of this.
I am not sure about you or your practices, but when I set up my gain structure, I set an overlap. In otherwords, I always setup for allowance of a clipped signal. Very few systems have enough power to be run unclipped and have adequate head room. If everyone set up their singl 4 ch amp system up to run with no clipping at all, there would be alot of pissed customers! LOL
If you feel that the function of a CAP is to supply adequate compensation power to an audio system, then you clearly do not understand variables such as ESL, ESR and their interrealtionship with the alternator and the battery. The very nature of music rarely requires more than a duty cycle of 10% - 20%from a power standpoint. With the alternator being the primary source of power and a CAP requiring X drop in voltage, where the battery would take over, makes the voltage stabilizing function of a cap, negligable and mostly nonsense. As you said, it's all physics!
You state that dynamic range is the difference between the highest and lowest levels, but then go on to contradict that with the dynamic range being actually increased through the process of compression. Please do explain this as I dont understand this and am always willing to learn something new. I do understand your example about increasing the loudness floor, but this still does not increase dynamic range as the difference between lowest and highest db levels are decreased.
As far as the subjective matter, just because I eat a mortons steak does not mean it is the best or great. Someone might like the steaks at charlie browns better and thats subjective. It's still a steak and comes down to prference. Some people like the bright sounds of MB Quarts and Focals, while some like the neutral sounding Morels or Dyn's. Sometimes people who are in "the know" grouping, just present and give the perception that they deal with something or use something that is special. Just like some smucks will pay hundreds for cables because they sound better! Just another sucker with golden ears!
I have enjoyed convivial the banter. However, caps are caps they load they discharge. Depending on size (charge held) just like in an amplifier there storage effect is minimal and benefit is felt over a short time. Look at it this way if you don't clip the amp and juice the electrical system, why would you need one? There is little debate as to there value except to the dealer selling them and installing them. Electrical properties of devices and there effect can be measured. There relationship is not voodo but electrical and mathematical fact.
You missed the point on todays music. Dynamic range simple stated is the difference from low level to the highest (I know you understand this). Compression actually increases dynamic range. When you play it back you expand it. So instead of 35 db to 90 db peaks you get 50 db to 90 db peaks. If you start with the higher number you need more power. The biggest peak is similar but the sarting point is significantly higher. There is a training manual JL uses for their "School of Sound" you should take a look. Dealers generally have it. It may even be on the web site. It's enlighetening. There are several good book by Vance ****ason and Joe D'appolito if you wish to learn more.
As far as competitiors are concerned, I was involed with IASCA when it started the company I worked for (as National Sales Manger for 7 years) was on of the companies that was first to support IASCA. We aslo benefitted from a marketing and of course financial stanpoint. To that end the reason SPL competitors use external power is any deficency in the charging system would cost them valuable db's for SPL. Again current draw is mathematical and electrical. We won't belabor that any longer.
To my point (guitar vs. cello) if sound were truly subjective and our hearing was radically different (subjective) we would have very different perceptions.
Back to the strad comparison. People with large degrees of experience differ far less than people with none or little. The field narrows quickly as with cars, wine, scotch. You can eat at the Golden Corral or Mortons. There several good books out there on physco/acoustics and the way we percieve sound.
As someone who has been involved in loudspeaker devolpment on a daily basis for 20 years, as people are exposed their taste change. Generally, more agreeement occurs based on that exposure.
Finally, the point we have the highest agreement on is the fact that application and install are highest priority when purchasing. That is where the "rubber meets the road." Less expensive product installed and set-up properly is way better than expensive product installed poorly. Yep, that's the point of all of this.
I am not sure about you or your practices, but when I set up my gain structure, I set an overlap. In otherwords, I always setup for allowance of a clipped signal. Very few systems have enough power to be run unclipped and have adequate head room. If everyone set up their singl 4 ch amp system up to run with no clipping at all, there would be alot of pissed customers! LOL
If you feel that the function of a CAP is to supply adequate compensation power to an audio system, then you clearly do not understand variables such as ESL, ESR and their interrealtionship with the alternator and the battery. The very nature of music rarely requires more than a duty cycle of 10% - 20%from a power standpoint. With the alternator being the primary source of power and a CAP requiring X drop in voltage, where the battery would take over, makes the voltage stabilizing function of a cap, negligable and mostly nonsense. As you said, it's all physics!
You state that dynamic range is the difference between the highest and lowest levels, but then go on to contradict that with the dynamic range being actually increased through the process of compression. Please do explain this as I dont understand this and am always willing to learn something new. I do understand your example about increasing the loudness floor, but this still does not increase dynamic range as the difference between lowest and highest db levels are decreased.
As far as the subjective matter, just because I eat a mortons steak does not mean it is the best or great. Someone might like the steaks at charlie browns better and thats subjective. It's still a steak and comes down to prference. Some people like the bright sounds of MB Quarts and Focals, while some like the neutral sounding Morels or Dyn's. Sometimes people who are in "the know" grouping, just present and give the perception that they deal with something or use something that is special. Just like some smucks will pay hundreds for cables because they sound better! Just another sucker with golden ears!
Last edited by dillyyo; 05-24-2008 at 02:21 AM.
06-01-2008, 06:59 AM
#51
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I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on the Rockford Fosgate P2L-212 for my G - any opinions?
May do the comparable JL double 10 or 12 box as well
Very tough finding feedback on these so any input is appreciated
Got to see if my bud has a spare amp for it too, may need suggestions on that
Eddie
May do the comparable JL double 10 or 12 box as well
Very tough finding feedback on these so any input is appreciated
Got to see if my bud has a spare amp for it too, may need suggestions on that
Eddie
06-01-2008, 08:40 AM
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LOL - just measured it up and there is no way that Rockford box fits in our trunk
Having regrouped I think it may be either
Rockford - P3L-S12 (a thin 12" wedge that I would lay flat)
JL - CS210RG-W1v2-2 a double 10" that I'd also lay flat
JL - CS112TG-W1v2 (single 12" wedge)
I listen mainly to 70's prog rock, (yes, elp, floyd, genesis)
Eddie
Having regrouped I think it may be either
Rockford - P3L-S12 (a thin 12" wedge that I would lay flat)
JL - CS210RG-W1v2-2 a double 10" that I'd also lay flat
JL - CS112TG-W1v2 (single 12" wedge)
I listen mainly to 70's prog rock, (yes, elp, floyd, genesis)
Eddie
05-17-2009, 02:27 AM
#53
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i mean Dynaudio System 240 Esotar
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?...roduct_ID=1140
Q: Where did you pick up all your Rainbow gear
A: I got my powerlines from a guy at my school you knows a dealer on the east coast
Q: Do I possibly know you from a different forum?
A: I dont think so
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?...roduct_ID=1140
Q: Where did you pick up all your Rainbow gear
A: I got my powerlines from a guy at my school you knows a dealer on the east coast
Q: Do I possibly know you from a different forum?
A: I dont think so
(Sorry for thread Jackin)
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