Ester Oil?

[jane]

So I can use what I use in my 3.5 which is Castol Syntec 5w-30 when I get my G37 sedan?

[BradManUWF]

Originally Posted by jane

So I can use what I use in my 3.5 which is Castol Syntec 5w-30 when I get my G37 sedan?

Just use the type of oil that the owner's manual says to, and you'll be fine.

[JonfromCB]

Brad, Glad you think the Castrol is working for you. I'm anxious to see some different
UOAs from the 3.7 since that's the only way to be sure an oil is working as
well as you "think"

Sorry that my last post angered you enough for you to say it was "jacked up",
whatever sophmoric meaning that has.

You missed the points that I was trying to make and that so many other
"G" owners want to know....why does Nissan recommend ester oil for
the 3.7, and is it needed or will it benefit the 3.5 motor. I hope this
answers some of the questions that many of us share; and Brad, I hope
this clarifies some of your "issues", whatever they are.

Both the 3.5 and 3.7 are called "VVel motors", but the 3.7 has approximately
40% different parts (according to Nissan). The 3.7, VQ37VHR motor
is what Nissan calls a "throttleless" design. "Throttleless" is the word
Mr Junichi Yajima, the designer of both systems uses to describe
the newer VVel system in the 3.7. This motor does not have a "butterfly"
in the intake tract, but instead uses sensors, an actuator, and an "actuator
motor" mechanism to regulate air flow into the engine"directly at the
intake valves." Again, this is not my description, This
is a description directly from Mr Yajima who designed
it. The new VVel system in the VQ37HR motor is more sensitive to oil
pressure than the previous 3.5 VVel system due to design, metals used,
and tighter tolerances than the 3.5 system. The 3.7 is noisey (see the TSBs,
multiple posts, published tests, and reviews for more information).
We all know that noise in an engine translates to metal-to-metal contact
and/or poor lubrication....this is where ester oil comes into the picture.
Ester oil provides better lubrication to some metals and in
tighter spaces than non-ester oil. It also "sticks" better
to moving parts in many applications as compared to
non-ester oils. Ester was the perfect solution to
quiet the valve train in Nissan's new engine. This is
ONE reason Nissan developed their Nissan Ester Oil,
very simply to reduce the noise and provide the best
possible lubrication to the new VVel parts....and it works.

The SECOND reason Nissan developed thier own oils is
that they had low Fleet MPG numbers as
compared to other manufacturers, so they developed the
oil with nano particles of carbon suspended in it, which work very
well with the coating they use on pistons, cylinders and
valves to reduce friction. It worked well enough to
raise their fleet MPG, so it's what they use for
their factory fill on their new cars. It's just that
simple.

Nissan requires API certified, "SM" rated 5w-30 in both the 3.5 and
3.7 engines for warranty purposes. Nissan recommends ester
oil for the VQ37VHR on page 9-3 of every "G" owners manual.
It's not cotroversial, complex or a marketing gimmick.
It's a choice, use what you want. If you want optimal
lubrication for the valve train of your 3.7 VVel, at least
you know why Nissan recommends it. It's your choice.

[SkyMG37x]

BradManUWF: I agree with your response above. Throttle Body and VVEL Valve Control are two totally separate parts of the engine. One is the air/fuel intake control and the other is for valve timing control.

This topic has been going on for too long with too many assumptions and opinions. Bottom line you should use whichever oil you feel is the best for your car as long as it meets the requirements listed in the owners manual. Nissan Ester is not a requirement but is claimed to be specially formulated for the VVEL metal surfaces but obviously even Infiniti dealers do not generally push it. My dealer did not think it was necessary and only recommended dino 5W-30 especially with the shorter change intervals.

[Need4Spd]

I've talked to two different Infiniti dealerships, one refused to sell me anything but ester oil and the other said it was a waste of my money. One oil change I used the ester and the second I used castrol syn blend(this is what the second dealership recommended). Honestly don't see a difference between the two. Recently I've had two instances where I hit the gas and it did not go, but don't think this is from the oil.
I've been doing a lot of researching on this and researching on different motor oil brands.
I'm not going to use ester again, really don't see the need to spend the extra cash for it. I am debating between other oil brands, mainly Penzoil Platnium and Mobile 1. Below are the spec sheets for both. Not sure I understand the typical properties. Anyone enlighten me?
http://www.pennzoil.com/documents/Pl...otor%20Oil.pdf
Mobil 1 5W-30

I did get the below response from mobile when I asked about mobile 1 in our cars versus ester oil:
Mobil does not have any information on the Nissan ester motor oil thus recommends that you utilize the Nissan branded motor oil, Mobil1 is not recommended at this time.

--
Thank you for choosing ExxonMobil products.
If you need further assistance, please contact ExxonMobil at 1-800-ASK-MOBIL

-MJ

[BradManUWF]

Originally Posted by JonfromCB

Brad, Glad you think the Castrol is working for you. I'm anxious to see some different
UOAs from the 3.7 since that's the only way to be sure an oil is working as
well as you "think"

Sorry that my last post angered you enough for you to say it was "jacked up",
whatever sophmoric meaning that has.

........removed all the uneeded text

"Jacked up" is a military term, just means messed up and it in no way displays "anger". Before I bother to waste my time arguing with a Lemming, what do you do? How much expirence with engine/cars do you have? How old are you? And most important of all, WHAT ARE YOUR SOUCRES FOR THIS INFO YOU'RE POSTING?

You can try to use the longer posts to make you look more credible, but that only works on people who don't think for themselves. Where are you getting your information from? Have you even taken off your intake tubes and looked at the throttle bodies? I know I did when I put my SRIs on, and wow, looky there, 2 throttle bodies. Yes the variable valves will regulate power output by controlling the duration the valves are open, but the throttle bodies regulate the amount of air being allowed into the intake manifold. If the VVEL controls the "throttle" all by itself, we wouldn't still have "throttle bodies" with butterfly valves.

Originally Posted by SkyMG37x

BradManUWF: I agree with your response above. Throttle Body and VVEL Valve Control are two totally separate parts of the engine. One is the air/fuel intake control and the other is for valve timing control.

This topic has been going on for too long with too many assumptions and opinions. Bottom line you should use whichever oil you feel is the best for your car as long as it meets the requirements listed in the owners manual. Nissan Ester is not a requirement but is claimed to be specially formulated for the VVEL metal surfaces but obviously even Infiniti dealers do not generally push it. My dealer did not think it was necessary and only recommended dino 5W-30 especially with the shorter change intervals.

This always happens on forums, one person posts something....he/she gets some "followers". Another one will post something a few pages later that's different, then he/she gets "followers". Those people post on different forums and then another person will repost that info on the orginal forum and the cycle continues. We call it "Circular Reporting" in the INTEL world. Before you know it, there's all kinds of semi-right and semi-worng info floating all over the interwebz. I post statements based on my own personal/physical/visual experience. Some people may agree with it, some may not. I'll use info posted on the web for more detail, but I still base things on what I can see, touch, and have worked on myself. Like the presence of throttle bodies that have butterfly valves and my knowledge of how throttle bodies work.

Originally Posted by Need4Spd

I've talked to two different Infiniti dealerships, one refused to sell me anything but ester oil and the other said it was a waste of my money. One oil change I used the ester and the second I used castrol syn blend(this is what the second dealership recommended). Honestly don't see a difference between the two. Recently I've had two instances where I hit the gas and it did not go, but don't think this is from the oil.
I've been doing a lot of researching on this and researching on different motor oil brands.
I'm not going to use ester again, really don't see the need to spend the extra cash for it. I am debating between other oil brands, mainly Penzoil Platnium and Mobile 1. Below are the spec sheets for both. Not sure I understand the typical properties. Anyone enlighten me?
http://www.pennzoil.com/documents/Pl...otor%20Oil.pdf
Mobil 1 5W-30

I did get the below response from mobile when I asked about mobile 1 in our cars versus ester oil:
Mobil does not have any information on the Nissan ester motor oil thus recommends that you utilize the Nissan branded motor oil, Mobil1 is not recommended at this time.

--
Thank you for choosing ExxonMobil products.
If you need further assistance, please contact ExxonMobil at 1-800-ASK-MOBIL

-MJ

Mobil was just covering their butts because they haven't tested/evaluated it. That's a standard answer to avoid being quoted which could result in a lawsuit from you using their product and it damage something.

[BradManUWF]

Another thing I noticed. You're not even using Nissan Ester, so why are you all over their bandwagon? I would also think that retired CMSgt of 28.5 years would know what the term "Jacked up" meant.....

"The 3.7 has vvel, and is "throttle less" (no butterfly valve in the intake tract)". You are very incorrect. You do know there's aftermarket throttle bodies and Blitz makes a throttle controller for the G right? That throttle controller adjusts the signal voltage that goes to the actuators that are connected to the butterfly valves that are in the throttle bodies. Take your intake tubes off and have a look at your throttle bodies and get back to us.....

Can't stand spreading "Jacked up" info. I'm not saying you're completely wrong, but you're not completely right either. Try to remember, some people will take whatever they read on forums to be truth because they don't know any better. How would you feel if you read something on a forum, took it as truth, and then messed something up on your car later finding out that was the poster's opinion that he/she put out there as fact? If someone read only your posts, they'd think their engine doesn't have throttle bodies and "requires" Nissan Ester, which is not fact, it's opinion. I tell people to use what they feel works for them on anything, but use the owner's manuals as guides.

Mods, lock this thread up. It's filled with 11 pages of opinions, including mine, that are partially right and partially wrong. I think people in search of info will get plenty out of 11 pages......

Here, enjoy this article about oil. It's long but very good info - Motor Oil 101 -

[jane]

Originally Posted by BradManUWF

Another thing I noticed. You're not even using Nissan Ester, so why are you all over their bandwagon? I would also think that retired CMSgt of 28.5 years would know what the term "Jacked up" meant.....

"The 3.7 has vvel, and is "throttle less" (no butterfly valve in the intake tract)". You are very incorrect. You do know there's aftermarket throttle bodies and Blitz makes a throttle controller for the G right? That throttle controller adjusts the signal voltage that goes to the actuators that are connected to the butterfly valves that are in the throttle bodies. Take your intake tubes off and have a look at your throttle bodies and get back to us.....

Can't stand spreading "Jacked up" info. I'm not saying you're completely wrong, but you're not completely right either. Try to remember, some people will take whatever they read on forums to be truth because they don't know any better. How would you feel if you read something on a forum, took it as truth, and then messed something up on your car later finding out that was the poster's opinion that he/she put out there as fact? If someone read only your posts, they'd think their engine doesn't have throttle bodies and "requires" Nissan Ester, which is not fact, it's opinion. I tell people to use what they feel works for them on anything, but use the owner's manuals as guides.

Mods, lock this thread up. It's filled with 11 pages of opinions, including mine, that are partially right and partially wrong. I think people in search of info will get plenty out of 11 pages......

Here, enjoy this article about oil. It's long but very good info - Motor Oil 101 -

Are you in charge of the mods now? Just ask'n.

[BradManUWF]

Originally Posted by jane

Are you in charge of the mods now? Just ask'n.

Nope, but these oil threads go on forever in every forum and nobody is going to read all the way through to the end unless they're bored out of their mind.

[jane]

They do go on forever with no real answers. I'm still not sure which oil to use other then Nissan $$$$.

[JonfromCB]

Brad, You've made this personal in regards to insult to others and myself
and my military service . So after I deal with you, I'll provide some
information for others on this thread who care and want constructive
information rather than your ignorant, non-referenced and incorrect "Brad facts"

You say that as a Chief Master Sergeant I should know what "Jacked up" means. Guess what?
It's stupid enough that I don't care. FYI I've been there and done things
that would make you cry for your mommy and crap yourself, and after over 28 years in
the Service, I certainly know a mouthy punk when I encounter one...enough of that!
I apologize to the other members who are here for constructive information. Please
forgive me

In regards to the differences between the 3.5 and the 3.7....You keep saying that
I'm wrong, and now "partially right", yet I have provided references to my comparisons
and you have not.... So today I called a technician at Infiniti Americal in Tennesee and
"ran these posts by them" they confired that I was correct. I have come
to the conclusion that you don't know the mechanical differences between
the 3.5 and 3.7 VVEL systems and refuse to learn (or can't) and refuse
to admit that you are wrong. You could also use some work on your
reading retention levels...I am currently using Nissan Esther in my G37
and will be switching to Redline 5w-30 at around 7K....you should read
the posts before you accuse me of the hypocracy of promoting the
Nissan oil and not using it. Here's some advice from a Chief..get
an education Brad, and then you can expect others to veiw you
as you would like them too. I mean that with all posiitve sincerety.

For the benefit of others: I had an extensive discussion with Infiniti
America about the whole "ester oil" issue of owners getting conflicting
information from service managers, all the concerns and confusion on
multiple nissan/infinity forms and other mechnical and technical oil
forms. They did confirm that there is conflicting information coming
from inconsistent Service managers. I recommended that they
owe it to their customers to explain why they recommend ester
oil for the VQ37VHR, And I complained that $12 or more per quart
for their conventional oil with ester is unacceptable. They were very
receptive and told me that they have recieved similar feedback on
each of my concerns, including some information on the
7AT and throttle response. After an over 30 minute conversation
with a very knowledeable rep" I was delighted that she told me
our call had been very useful information for them and offered me
a very unexpected and nice "freebee"...I won't say what it
was so that everyone doesn't call them wanting it, but
I was very suprised at how receptive they were and that
they rewarded me for my efforts...they made my day.

Thanks for listening.

[jane]

Interesting.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by JonfromCB

Too much on the last two pages to even know where to begin to contribute in
a useful way, but here goes. 1st, the 3.7 is a very different engine than the 3.5
as far as the valve train and not having a throttle as such. The VVel system
in the 3.7 has an actuator and motor that have taken the place of the throttle
by controlling the constantly variable valves. This system in the 3.7 is very sensitive to
fluctuations in hydrolic pressure, hense the recommendation of Ester oil for
optimal VVel operation in the 3.7. The first sign of poor lubrication on the 3.7
valve train is noise. The problem has been mostly in the coupes but has
also occured in the Sedan. The fix consists of a computer reflash and fill
with Nissan Ester.

2nd, Ester is synthetic derived from sources other than crude oil from the ground.
It can come from various and or combined plant sources. Ester oil is polar....that
simply means that is attracted to the engine surfaces at the molecular level which
is different from non-ester oil, whether it be synthetic or conventional.
These properties of Ester oil are what makes it work so well in lubricating the unique
parts in the 3.7 VVel ..this is why Nissan created and marketed their own oil.
The Nissan Ester also has unique nano particles of
carbon that work with the coating that Nissan puts on pistons, cylinders and valves
to reduce friction and increase MPG. Nissan applied for a european patent based
on the nano particle additives, but the patent was denied based on other
manufacturers already using suspended carbon as an additive.

Although Ester oil is only recommended and not required in the 3.7, I have learned
enough about this issue in the last two months that I can tell you I will only be using
Ester based oil in my car. There are many good ester oils for passenger car
use...Motul, Redline, Enoes, and Renewable Lubricants are amoung the most well known makers of non-racing
"street use oils" in addition to their racing oils. I would not recommend racing oils for any engine not being raced.
because it has no or very little of the detergents that engines not being raced require to prevent
sludge and disolve contaminants that get quickly "burned off" in racing applications....don't do it, you've been warned.

I am personally going with Redline, delivered to my door for under $8.50/quart
instead of the Nissan at over $12/quart, but that is solely based on my
personal preference. The others are good as well, but I personally like the
Redline passenger car oil specifications and feel secure that I can safely
do an oil change every 6 months or 7500 miles with it. I hope this
information helps someone out...I didn't know any of this when I sold
my M35 and got my G37. I quickly found out that Nissan has done
a poor job explaining these issues and I personally talked to 4 service managers
at Nissan and Infiniti dealers and only one could begin to explain
these issues....sad job of training your service managers Nissan.....just sad.

Originally Posted by BradManUWF

Dude, that's all jacked up. The constant variable valves taking the place of the throttle? You might want to rethink that a little. Our engines have 2 "drive by wire" throttle bodies. The throttles weren't replaced, the mechanical cables were which also removed the need for a seperate cruise control assembly. How you came up with the throttle being replaced by a variable valve train is, um.....yeah. Now if you're speaking about the "butterfly valves" in the throttle bodies, those still work the exact same way as the throttle bodies on any other engine whether is has cables or a servo. The throttles are controlled differently but they still work the same way. A butterfly valve regulates how much air is allowed to in, which is controlled by your foot. If this is what you mean, then I'd relabel your "constantly variable valves" as "butterfly valves" or just "throttle bodies".




Here's the bottom line on oil. If the engine requires/needs "Ester oil", it would say that in the owner's manual or Nissan would be facing massive lawsuits because they didn't sepcifically publish that, causing engines to go bad. If a specific oil was required, using any oil but that would void the warranty. Use the quality/rating of oil the owner's manual says to and your engine will be fine. When big companies recommend using a specific item, and that item happens to be made by the same company, that's called marketing. Corvette Z06s and other various European cars do the same thing with Mobil 1. They "recommend" using it, but it's not required. Marketing.....some people just get owned by it

I've changed my oil every 5K miles with Castol Syntec 5w-30 and a my engine is still nice and smooth, no noise, no valve chatter. This thread kills me, it's some great entertainment though The forever debated oil thread....every forum has one and everybody disagrees with everybody else.

To Clarify, under normal operation, the two butterfly valves are "open", and VVEL determines the amount of air let into the cylinder via valve lift and duration. (my understanding is that the majority is controlled by lift, rather than duration).

Oil pressure is constantly changing, the VVEL system is not sensitive to oil pressure. "normal" oil pressure under operation varies with the measured spot, but is typically between 25psi and 80psi.

For further clarification, the only VVEL motors are the VK50 and the VQ37. All other Nissan motors as of this post are not VVEL motors. This includes the GT-R's VR38.


For further clarification, most service managers and advisors have minimal technical knowledge of the inner workings of a vehicle. They are too busy with finances and management to keep up with technicalities. Chances are, the first time they are made aware of a TSB is when an informed consumer bring it to them, or if the problem is complained about by a customer.

[JonfromCB]

Originally Posted by Mike

To Clarify, under normal operation, the two butterfly valves are "open", and VVEL determines the amount of air let into the cylinder via valve lift and duration. (my understanding is that the majority is controlled by lift, rather than duration).

Oil pressure is constantly changing, the VVEL system is not sensitive to oil pressure. "normal" oil pressure under operation varies with the measured spot, but is typically between 25psi and 80psi.

For further clarification, the only VVEL motors are the VK50 and the VQ37. All other Nissan motors as of this post are not VVEL motors. This includes the GT-R's VR38.


For further clarification, most service managers and advisors have minimal technical knowledge of the inner workings of a vehicle. They are too busy with finances and management to keep up with technicalities. Chances are, the first time they are made aware of a TSB is when an informed consumer bring it to them, or if the problem is complained about by a customer.

Mike, I was wondering where you've been. You are absolutely right
about the 3.5 not being a "VVEL". Even though it is a variable
valve system and is refered to by many, including myself as a
"VVEL", it is not.

In regards to the "butterfly flap", it's function in the VVEL motor
has more to do with the emissions control system than it does
"throttle" function.

In regards to your statement that "the VVEL system is not sensitive
to oil pressure"....I guess that would depend on ones interpretation
of the word " sensitive" combined with a detailed knowledge of
tribology, the specific oil, and engine in question....BUT, I can
tell you that Terry Dyson and "Nissan" both have made statements
contrary to yours that the 3.7 VVEL valve train is "sensitive" to
oil pressure compared to other Nissan engines. There is no
denying that Nissan came out with the "ester" as a "solution"
to an "issue" with this engine and that's the subject of
this entire thread.

I could not agree more with you on your nutshell asessment
of Service Managers. The only one out of five I have personally
talked to concerning the "ester oil" issue that is knowledgeable
and inquisitive about it is the one who actually owns a G37.

I am still anxious to see UOAs from 3.7s using various oils.
The bigger question is how the engines using non-ester oils
will compare to the ones using ester as they start getting
close to the end of the warranty mileage???

[todd92]

Originally Posted by JonfromCB

Brad, Glad you think the Castrol is working for you. I'm anxious to see some different
UOAs from the 3.7 since that's the only way to be sure an oil is working as
well as you "think"

Sorry that my last post angered you enough for you to say it was "jacked up",
whatever sophmoric meaning that has.

You missed the points that I was trying to make and that so many other
"G" owners want to know....why does Nissan recommend ester oil for
the 3.7, and is it needed or will it benefit the 3.5 motor. I hope this
answers some of the questions that many of us share; and Brad, I hope
this clarifies some of your "issues", whatever they are.

Both the 3.5 and 3.7 are called "VVel motors", but the 3.7 has approximately
40% different parts (according to Nissan). The 3.7, VQ37VHR motor
is what Nissan calls a "throttleless" design. "Throttleless" is the word
Mr Junichi Yajima, the designer of both systems uses to describe
the newer VVel system in the 3.7. This motor does not have a "butterfly"
in the intake tract, but instead uses sensors, an actuator, and an "actuator
motor" mechanism to regulate air flow into the engine"directly at the
intake valves." Again, this is not my description, This
is a description directly from Mr Yajima who designed
it. The new VVel system in the VQ37HR motor is more sensitive to oil
pressure than the previous 3.5 VVel system due to design, metals used,
and tighter tolerances than the 3.5 system. The 3.7 is noisey (see the TSBs,
multiple posts, published tests, and reviews for more information).
We all know that noise in an engine translates to metal-to-metal contact
and/or poor lubrication....this is where ester oil comes into the picture.
Ester oil provides better lubrication to some metals and in
tighter spaces than non-ester oil. It also "sticks" better
to moving parts in many applications as compared to
non-ester oils. Ester was the perfect solution to
quiet the valve train in Nissan's new engine. This is
ONE reason Nissan developed their Nissan Ester Oil,
very simply to reduce the noise and provide the best
possible lubrication to the new VVel parts....and it works.

The SECOND reason Nissan developed thier own oils is
that they had low Fleet MPG numbers as
compared to other manufacturers, so they developed the
oil with nano particles of carbon suspended in it, which work very
well with the coating they use on pistons, cylinders and
valves to reduce friction. It worked well enough to
raise their fleet MPG, so it's what they use for
their factory fill on their new cars. It's just that
simple.

Nissan requires API certified, "SM" rated 5w-30 in both the 3.5 and
3.7 engines for warranty purposes. Nissan recommends ester
oil for the VQ37VHR on page 9-3 of every "G" owners manual.
It's not cotroversial, complex or a marketing gimmick.
It's a choice, use what you want. If you want optimal
lubrication for the valve train of your 3.7 VVel, at least
you know why Nissan recommends it. It's your choice.

BS. It is not the factory fill, nor is it recommended or even mentioned in the owners manual.